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It's possible that 4♣ followed by an action double on 4♥ is best. I would like to see a computer simulation so that I knew the probability of neither side having game. I voted 5♣ though. It's something to discuss with partner. Some partners don't like unilateral bidding. I wouldn't bid 2♣ since I wouldn't know what to do after 4♥.
What do you bid pretty strong with 8 card C
#21
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Posted 2005-July-01, 02:02
The world would be such a happy place, if only everyone played Acol :) --- TramTicket
#22
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Posted 2005-July-01, 02:53
"I wouldn't know what to do after 4♥. "
I will x 4H
I will x 4H
"The King of Hearts a broadsword bears, the Queen of Hearts a rose." W. H. Auden.
#23
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Posted 2005-July-01, 04:47
mike777, on Jul 1 2005, 06:04 AM, said:
5clubs
P is a passed hand and I expect them to have nothing.
P is a passed hand and I expect them to have nothing.
ITA Mike
Had I been 2nd bidder I would have started with 2♣ though
#24
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Posted 2005-July-01, 05:11
Interested why Dbl is a poor option.
Partner is still allowed to have 10pts or even 5 spades so we could have game easily in 3NT/4♠/5♣.
Partner is still allowed to have 10pts or even 5 spades so we could have game easily in 3NT/4♠/5♣.
#25
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Posted 2005-July-01, 05:37
X is not a poor option. X is absolutely appalling. Jeez man, you have 8 C, only 3S and 1D if partner should bid that suit, and you really want to X!!!!!!
"The King of Hearts a broadsword bears, the Queen of Hearts a rose." W. H. Auden.
#26
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Posted 2005-July-01, 05:53
How can it be an apalling bid?
Why should we unilaterally ignore partner in the decision process we can describe our strength and shape quite eloquently...
♠ AKT
♥ 7
♦ Q
♣ AQ987652
What do u bid with
♠ JTx
♥ x
♦ x
♣ AQ987652
for example...
1♥-X Guess I'm showing a goodish hand with either tolerance for any suit OR a long suit of my own with 16+ pts (Oh thats what I have).
Over 2♦ I bid 3♣
Over 1♠ I can bid 2♣
Over 1NT (not impossible) bid 3NT or 3♣ not sure which
Over 2♠ I can bid 3♣ should be forcing surely and possibly get to 4♠
It also gives us the chance to penalise 4♥ etc as I do have some nice defensive tricks!
Steve
Why should we unilaterally ignore partner in the decision process we can describe our strength and shape quite eloquently...
♠ AKT
♥ 7
♦ Q
♣ AQ987652
What do u bid with
♠ JTx
♥ x
♦ x
♣ AQ987652
for example...
1♥-X Guess I'm showing a goodish hand with either tolerance for any suit OR a long suit of my own with 16+ pts (Oh thats what I have).
Over 2♦ I bid 3♣
Over 1♠ I can bid 2♣
Over 1NT (not impossible) bid 3NT or 3♣ not sure which
Over 2♠ I can bid 3♣ should be forcing surely and possibly get to 4♠
It also gives us the chance to penalise 4♥ etc as I do have some nice defensive tricks!
Steve
#27
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Posted 2005-July-01, 08:32
Suppose the auction goes:
1H X 4H 5D from partner, holding 6 diamonds to the KJT and a singleton club.
This is why double is a revolting bid.
1H X 4H 5D from partner, holding 6 diamonds to the KJT and a singleton club.
This is why double is a revolting bid.
#28
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Posted 2005-July-01, 10:08
And if he holds Qxxxxx ♠ and void ♣...
#29 Guest_Jlall_*
Posted 2005-July-01, 16:18
If he holds Qxxxx of spades and a club void, you wont make spades either. In fact, you will be better off in clubs. They are going to tap you and u will never enjoy the long clubs. This is why the rule that an 8 card suit is trumps exists. It's not possible to describe an 8-3-1-1.
#30
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Posted 2005-July-01, 16:34
I voted for 2C, but missed the fact that partner was a passed hand. Given this, I think that 5C is much better.
Please note: I am interested in boring, bog standard, 2/1.
- hrothgar
- hrothgar
#31
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Posted 2005-July-01, 16:54
It seems like an awful lot of people are assuming that the opponents are about to bid 4♥. I don't really understand the reasoning for this. Keep in mind:
(1) LHO's expected number of hearts is about three. He's a passed hand. He's not likely to bid 4♥.
(2) We have 15 hcp. People often open light in 3rd seat. There's no real reason to think opponents have the majority of the strength, much less strength for game. No reason to think RHO will bid 4♥ over a single raise.
Pretty much all the arguments I've seen for 5♣ state, one way or another, that opponents are about to bid 4♥ and this will maximize the pressure on them to double or bid 5♥. But it seems to me that the vast majority of the time you bid 5♣, you will be passed out or doubled. Normally the double comes when RHO has a big hand or when LHO has KJx of club, and in either case you go for a number. 5♣ will probably go down at least as often as it makes when it passes out. Given that we have three defensive tricks, how likely is it really that opponents were about to bid and make 4♥? I just don't see it. Why preempt when you have the best hand at the table?
(1) LHO's expected number of hearts is about three. He's a passed hand. He's not likely to bid 4♥.
(2) We have 15 hcp. People often open light in 3rd seat. There's no real reason to think opponents have the majority of the strength, much less strength for game. No reason to think RHO will bid 4♥ over a single raise.
Pretty much all the arguments I've seen for 5♣ state, one way or another, that opponents are about to bid 4♥ and this will maximize the pressure on them to double or bid 5♥. But it seems to me that the vast majority of the time you bid 5♣, you will be passed out or doubled. Normally the double comes when RHO has a big hand or when LHO has KJx of club, and in either case you go for a number. 5♣ will probably go down at least as often as it makes when it passes out. Given that we have three defensive tricks, how likely is it really that opponents were about to bid and make 4♥? I just don't see it. Why preempt when you have the best hand at the table?
Adam W. Meyerson
a.k.a. Appeal Without Merit
a.k.a. Appeal Without Merit
#32
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Posted 2005-July-01, 17:07
You preempt because you don't want to hear an auction like this
pass..pass..1♥....2♣
3♥....pass...4♥....??
and now, are you happy for not having said you hold EIGHT clubs? Are you going to butt-in 5♣ in the dark, or double 4♥ and find out it makes?
Isn't it better to bid 4 or 5♣ and double later if they bid on? If it goes
pass..pass..1♥....4♣
4♥....pass..pass....dbl
now you can double to show a decent preempt with a side trick or two. Pard will probably be able to help a bit here, whereas in the first case he'd be much more in the dark as to the number of clubs tricks our side can take in a opps heart contract. Something that can make all the difference...
pass..pass..1♥....2♣
3♥....pass...4♥....??
and now, are you happy for not having said you hold EIGHT clubs? Are you going to butt-in 5♣ in the dark, or double 4♥ and find out it makes?
Isn't it better to bid 4 or 5♣ and double later if they bid on? If it goes
pass..pass..1♥....4♣
4♥....pass..pass....dbl
now you can double to show a decent preempt with a side trick or two. Pard will probably be able to help a bit here, whereas in the first case he'd be much more in the dark as to the number of clubs tricks our side can take in a opps heart contract. Something that can make all the difference...
#33
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Posted 2005-July-01, 17:13
whereagles, on Jul 1 2005, 06:07 PM, said:
You preempt because you don't want to hear an auction like this
pass..pass..1♥....2♣
3♥....pass...4♥....??
and now, are you happy for not having said you hold EIGHT clubs? Are you going to butt-in 5♣ in the dark, or double 4♥ and find out it makes?
Isn't it better to bid 4 or 5♣ and double later if they bid on? If it goes
pass..pass..1♥....4♣
4♥....pass..pass....dbl
now you can double to show a decent preempt with a side trick or two. Pard will probably be able to help a bit here, whereas in the first case he'd be much more in the dark as to the number of clubs tricks our side can take in a opps heart contract. Something that can make all the difference...
pass..pass..1♥....2♣
3♥....pass...4♥....??
and now, are you happy for not having said you hold EIGHT clubs? Are you going to butt-in 5♣ in the dark, or double 4♥ and find out it makes?
Isn't it better to bid 4 or 5♣ and double later if they bid on? If it goes
pass..pass..1♥....4♣
4♥....pass..pass....dbl
now you can double to show a decent preempt with a side trick or two. Pard will probably be able to help a bit here, whereas in the first case he'd be much more in the dark as to the number of clubs tricks our side can take in a opps heart contract. Something that can make all the difference...
As mentioned before... this auction to 4♥ is not that likely. LHO has more hearts than expected for the raise, and RHO actually has enough to bid game over it? Seems like this puts opponents on a max in high card points and a longer-than-average heart fit.
If I bid 4♣ initially, partner will certainly take some phantom sacrifices against 4♥ -- he will not think one defensive trick is enough. If I bid 4♣ and then double, does partner know to pull with no defense? If he does pull, isn't it an automatic double from opponents (and almost surely a right decision on their part)? If 4♣ passes out, now I lose both when it goes down and when it makes an overtrick... lousy odds really.
I don't think an initial 5♣ bid makes it much harder for opponents to go right. Bidding 5♥ is going to be wrong, and they're not going to bid it. In fact they are more likely to (wrongly) bid up to 5♥ if I start with 2♣.
But again, all of this is predicated on the assumption that opponents have a big heart fit and about to bid game in hearts. Why do you think that's even probable?
Adam W. Meyerson
a.k.a. Appeal Without Merit
a.k.a. Appeal Without Merit
#34
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Posted 2005-July-01, 17:34
imo there's more "wrong" with 2c than the chance it will be 4h when it gets back to you... there are a lot of possibilities, but would you really like (1h) 2c all pass? not likely maybe, but i've seen it happen more than once
i'd bid 5c and be more worried about missing a slam than going down
i'd bid 5c and be more worried about missing a slam than going down
"Paul Krugman is a stupid person's idea of what a smart person sounds like." Newt Gingrich (paraphrased)
#35
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Posted 2005-July-01, 17:38
I think that it is entirely reasonable to expect one of the following auctions:
pass-pass-1H-2C
2H-pass-3D-??
or
pass-pass-1H-2C
2D-pass-3H-??
or worst:
pass-pass-1H-2C
3D*-pass-3H-??
Where 3D is a support jump shift, and 3H is a sign off.
They are having a good auction to what is likely to be their best spot. If you bid 5C now, they'll be much more likely to get it right. In the third case, LHO would likely bid 5H over your 5C, and they'd be 2 levels higher than they'd want to be.
pass-pass-1H-2C
2H-pass-3D-??
or
pass-pass-1H-2C
2D-pass-3H-??
or worst:
pass-pass-1H-2C
3D*-pass-3H-??
Where 3D is a support jump shift, and 3H is a sign off.
They are having a good auction to what is likely to be their best spot. If you bid 5C now, they'll be much more likely to get it right. In the third case, LHO would likely bid 5H over your 5C, and they'd be 2 levels higher than they'd want to be.
Please note: I am interested in boring, bog standard, 2/1.
- hrothgar
- hrothgar
#36
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Posted 2005-July-01, 17:40
luke warm, on Jul 1 2005, 06:34 PM, said:
imo there's more "wrong" with 2c than the chance it will be 4h when it gets back to you... there are a lot of possibilities, but would you really like (1h) 2c all pass? not likely maybe, but i've seen it happen more than once
i'd bid 5c and be more worried about missing a slam than going down
i'd bid 5c and be more worried about missing a slam than going down
I have never seen the auction 1H-2C getting passed out with an 8-card suit. If it does get passed out, partner is likely to have really short clubs and a decent hand.
Please note: I am interested in boring, bog standard, 2/1.
- hrothgar
- hrothgar
#37
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Posted 2005-July-01, 17:51
how decent a hand? decent enough to make 6c? i wouldn't bid 2c with an 8 card suit, especially with 5 controls
"Paul Krugman is a stupid person's idea of what a smart person sounds like." Newt Gingrich (paraphrased)
#38
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Posted 2005-July-01, 18:04
This theme reminds of a hand I just played on bbo.
1H=2d=2h=?
vul vs vul
imps
kx=xx=ktxxx=jxxx
I bid 5d and was the only one in field who bid 5d immed.
Down 3 but no x.
But most of field played 4h making or 5dx with slower bidding.
Of course a few pairs got a top board defending 3h.
1H=2d=2h=?
vul vs vul
imps
kx=xx=ktxxx=jxxx
I bid 5d and was the only one in field who bid 5d immed.
Down 3 but no x.
But most of field played 4h making or 5dx with slower bidding.
Of course a few pairs got a top board defending 3h.
#39
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Posted 2005-July-01, 19:08
5C.
It could be wrong, but make them guess.
And you might make it.
Peter
It could be wrong, but make them guess.
And you might make it.
Peter