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Protection

#1 User is offline   goat22 

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Posted 2023-February-11, 15:53

I held. S A10742. H A864 D A10 C 74
Opened 1 space overall 3 club nat weak partner passes as does other oppo
Would you bid ?
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#2 User is offline   jillybean 

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Posted 2023-February-11, 16:11



Vulnerability?

I pass, I have a partner, double would promise a better hand
"And no matter what methods you play, it is essential, for anyone aspiring to learn to be a good player, to learn the importance of bidding shape properly." MikeH
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#3 User is offline   Frank_lol_ 

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Posted 2023-February-11, 16:28

Pass. This hand has good defensive value, and I'm not bidding on the three level with this.
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#4 User is offline   mikeh 

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Posted 2023-February-11, 19:07

Depends on my opps. You’re allowed to ask his partner about their preempting style

I have a partner whose 3C bids are so weak that I won’t post any examples! If he were on my left, I’d double.

Garbage overcalls often avoid what they deserve, simply because the opps assume that th3 bidder isn’t insane��

But against most players, especially anyone who needs 7 clubs to bid 3C, passing is probably the percentage call…but I hate it!

Edit: I’m not sure what Frank means by his reference to bidding at the 3 level. No way does this hand make a 3 level bid, but double is a close decision
'one of the great markers of the advance of human kindness is the howls you will hear from the Men of God' Johann Hari
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#5 User is offline   LBengtsson 

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Posted 2023-February-11, 22:03

If the opps. make garbage pre-empts, I'will protect with a garbage X :)

But honestly, with 5422 shape and a minimum hand, despite the three aces, Pass looks most like the bid that many will make.
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#6 User is offline   Tramticket 

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Posted 2023-February-12, 03:10

I am at the lower end of a 1S opening in our system (weak NT, 4-card majors). But if we are playing pairs with neither side vulnerable (as in Jillybean's diagram), then I am making a reopening double.

Partner probably has an average of 10 points and two clubs. If this is the case, then the opponents have an eight or nine-card fit and we are odds-on to have a fit somewhere. If they are making 3C, then 2-off might be ok (it might not be easy for them to double). If partner has (say) Hxx in clubs and a balanced hand, they might pass for penalties at pairs and you will expect to beat 3C.
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#7 User is offline   Cyberyeti 

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Posted 2023-February-12, 03:15

View PostFrank_lol_, on 2023-February-11, 16:28, said:

Pass. This hand has good defensive value, and I'm not bidding on the three level with this.


This is a dangerous pass, a hand as bad as x, Kxxxxx, xxx, xxx makes game and doesn't beat 4.

I think I double, not liking it much
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#8 User is offline   AL78 

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Posted 2023-February-12, 04:11

View PostCyberyeti, on 2023-February-12, 03:15, said:

This is a dangerous pass, a hand as bad as x, Kxxxxx, xxx, xxx makes game and doesn't beat 4.

I think I double, not liking it much


It is frequently possible to choose a weak but perfect fitting hand opposite where a very marginal action works over a sound action. Bidding on the assumption that partner is going to hold super cards for you is something that happens in magazine bidding challenges IMO, not my experience at the table. I'm not saying double isn't right but would be cautious of looking at one hand where it works. What matters is how frequently on average would it work given the auction, and that cannot be determined with a sample size of one.
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#9 User is offline   Cyberyeti 

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Posted 2023-February-12, 04:21

View PostAL78, on 2023-February-12, 04:11, said:

It is frequently possible to choose a weak but perfect fitting hand opposite where a very marginal action works over a sound action. Bidding on the assumption that partner is going to hold super cards for you is something that happens in magazine bidding challenges IMO, not my experience at the table. I'm not saying double isn't right but would be cautious of looking at one hand where it works. What matters is how frequently on average would it work given the auction, and that cannot be determined with a sample size of one.


I'm also delighted if partner passes, the only thing that I really don't like is if partner bids 3
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#10 User is offline   the hog 

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Posted 2023-February-12, 04:37

"I’m not sure what Frank means by his reference to bidding at the 3 level. No way does this hand make a 3 level bid, but double is a close decision"
No and it is not close.
"The King of Hearts a broadsword bears, the Queen of Hearts a rose." W. H. Auden.
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#11 User is online   DavidKok 

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Posted 2023-February-12, 06:47

View PostCyberyeti, on 2023-February-12, 04:21, said:

I'm also delighted if partner passes, the only thing that I really don't like is if partner bids 3
If partner pulls to 3 I am terrified, especially if we get doubled. If partner bids 3NT we're also too high (partner's failure to bid 3NT last round indicates a lack of values).

I'd pass. If partner has a penalty double of 3, oh well.
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#12 User is offline   mikeh 

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Posted 2023-February-12, 10:27

View PostTramticket, on 2023-February-12, 03:10, said:

I am at the lower end of a 1S opening in our system (weak NT, 4-card majors). But if we are playing pairs with neither side vulnerable (as in Jillybean's diagram), then I am making a reopening double.

Partner probably has an average of 10 points and two clubs. If this is the case, then the opponents have an eight or nine-card fit and we are odds-on to have a fit somewhere. If they are making 3C, then 2-off might be ok (it might not be easy for them to double). If partner has (say) Hxx in clubs and a balanced hand, they might pass for penalties at pairs and you will expect to beat 3C.

Your arithmetic is flawed

There are many 10 counts with which he’d have bid

If he has 3 spades and 9+ hcp, he can’t pass 3C.

If he has, say, 2=4=5=2 or 2=5=4=2 and 9+ hcp he should double

One can construct some decent hands where pass is best. Say 2=3=6=2…..but to claim that he has on average 10 hcp and 2 clubs makes no sense

You can’t draw any solid inference from RHO’s pass. RHO needs a very good hand to bid over 3C, and we can infer that he’s not looking at a very good hand, if only because he rates to hold zero aces and short clubs.

I think it’s more accurate to say that partner could have as much as a misfitting 10 count, or a clear penalty pass, but will, on average, hold less.
'one of the great markers of the advance of human kindness is the howls you will hear from the Men of God' Johann Hari
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