Disputed double
#1
Posted 2014-September-15, 11:08
Say you rule, influenced perhaps by the club's new red tableclothes, that the double was indeed made, just not seen by EW.
Is there any provision to allow an adjusted score, on the basis that the auction hadn't finished, and that 3NT X wouldn't have been the final contract had West been aware that he still had another call?
Do NS have a responsibility to inform West that he has another call?
#2
Posted 2014-September-15, 11:14
MickyB, on 2014-September-15, 11:08, said:
Say you rule, influenced perhaps by the club's new red tableclothes, that the double was indeed made, just not seen by EW.
Is there any provision to allow an adjusted score, on the basis that the auction hadn't finished, and that 3NT X wouldn't have been the final contract had West been aware that he still had another call?
Do NS have a responsibility to inform West that he has another call?
Was the double not followed by three passes?
#3
Posted 2014-September-15, 11:54
MickyB, on 2014-September-15, 11:08, said:
North or South should not lead until the auction is over - so they should ensure that West has taken some action to demonstrate he has passed.
"Robin Barker is a mathematician. ... All highly skilled in their respective fields and clearly accomplished bridge players."
#4
Posted 2014-September-15, 12:01
#6
Posted 2014-September-15, 12:40
paulg, on 2014-September-15, 12:01, said:
This is normally the case when there is a disputed double, especially when the double was followed by two passes and everyone picking up the cards - one player because he thinks the auction is over and the others because they think the final player has passed by picking up his bidding cards.
I'll now leave it to the directors on the forum
#7
Posted 2014-September-15, 14:37
Bidding box regulations stipulate the proper way to make calls. The proper way to pass is to put down a Pass card.
Picking up your bidding cards, or tapping the table, or any other gesture, is not proper. However, we usually do not penalize this, based on the "no harm, no foul" principle.
But if there's confusion as a result, and the TD gets called as a result, the "no harm" prerequisite is violated. If you take a shortcut like this, and I have to get involved as a result, you get no redress. If both sides do it, they're both the offending side.
#8
Posted 2014-September-15, 14:59
barmar, on 2014-September-15, 14:37, said:
Bidding box regulations stipulate the proper way to make calls. The proper way to pass is to put down a Pass card.
Picking up your bidding cards, or tapping the table, or any other gesture, is not proper. However, we usually do not penalize this, based on the "no harm, no foul" principle.
But if there's confusion as a result, and the TD gets called as a result, the "no harm" prerequisite is violated. If you take a shortcut like this, and I have to get involved as a result, you get no redress. If both sides do it, they're both the offending side.
So in this case you would award the defense the score for 3NT down 3, and the declaring side the score for 3NTX down 3?
As for tv, screw it. You aren't missing anything. -- Ken Berg
I have come to realise it is futile to expect or hope a regular club game will be run in accordance with the laws. -- Jillybean
#9
Posted 2014-September-15, 15:13
barmar, on 2014-September-15, 14:37, said:
Surely it's irrelevant whether EW normally do this, unless NS *know* that West normally does this?
Obviously, this would be different if only one of EW had missed the double.
#10
Posted 2014-September-15, 15:40
As for tv, screw it. You aren't missing anything. -- Ken Berg
I have come to realise it is futile to expect or hope a regular club game will be run in accordance with the laws. -- Jillybean
#11
Posted 2014-September-16, 07:15
MickyB, on 2014-September-15, 11:08, said:
Say you rule, influenced perhaps by the club's new red tableclothes, that the double was indeed made, just not seen by EW.
Is there any provision to allow an adjusted score, on the basis that the auction hadn't finished, and that 3NT X wouldn't have been the final contract had West been aware that he still had another call?
If your ruling is based on the assumption that the auction has gone:
.... (W) 3NT - (N) X - (E) P - (S) P; then West, followed by the others, pick up their bidding cards, then according to the White Book 8.22.2 the TD may deem that their action constituted a pass, and that once the lead has been faced there is no going back to the auction. It doesn't say that no adjusted score can be awarded, but I think this ruling suggests that you think that West passed because he misunderstood the auction, and as Law 21 says,
Quote
Unfortunately the White Book follows this with an example auction in the same section where a player reads her partner's double as a pass and picks up her cards, thinking she is in the pass-out seat. The Laws and Ethics Committee think she should be allowed another call once she realises her mistake, which seems to go against the rest of the advice they've given on this matter, and makes no sense to me.
#12
Posted 2014-September-16, 13:21
As for tv, screw it. You aren't missing anything. -- Ken Berg
I have come to realise it is futile to expect or hope a regular club game will be run in accordance with the laws. -- Jillybean
#13
Posted 2014-September-16, 14:39
VixTD, on 2014-September-16, 07:15, said:
.... (W) 3NT - (N) X - (E) P - (S) P; then West, followed by the others, pick up their bidding cards, then according to the White Book 8.22.2 the TD may deem that their action constituted a pass, and that once the lead has been faced there is no going back to the auction. It doesn't say that no adjusted score can be awarded, but I think this ruling suggests that you think that West passed because he misunderstood the auction, and as Law 21 says, .
"may" is important
VixTD, on 2014-September-16, 07:15, said:
If partner has doubled, then whatever the player thinks, the player is not in the pass out seat and picking up the cards will not be deemed as a Pass.
"Robin Barker is a mathematician. ... All highly skilled in their respective fields and clearly accomplished bridge players."
#14
Posted 2014-September-16, 23:52
Even better is to use bidding pads in which a more permanent record of the auction is kept.
I believe that the USA currently hold only the World Championship For People Who Still Bid Like Your Auntie Gladys - dburn
dunno how to play 4 card majors - JLOGIC
True but I know Standard American and what better reason could I have for playing Precision? - Hideous Hog
Bidding is an estimation of probabilities SJ Simon
#15
Posted 2014-September-17, 05:02
Players will grumble. "Everybody does it." "What's the big deal?" "Oh, come on, that's not fair." Wrong. It's the only thing that is fair, especially considering
Quote
When they complain "This isn't a tournament, it's a club game!" my answer is "The laws do not distinguish between the two".
As for tv, screw it. You aren't missing anything. -- Ken Berg
I have come to realise it is futile to expect or hope a regular club game will be run in accordance with the laws. -- Jillybean
#16
Posted 2014-September-17, 06:15
RMB1, on 2014-September-16, 14:39, said:
If partner has doubled, then whatever the player thinks, the player is not in the pass out seat and picking up the cards will not be deemed as a Pass.
If the auction goes:
"bid - X - P - P" and the bidder reads this as "bid - P - P - P"
then surely the director is less likely to rule that the bidder's action in picking up the bidding cards constitutes a pass (because in the bidder's mind the auction is over and they have no further call to make) than if the auction goes:
"bid - bid - X - P" and it's likely that the first bidder read this as "bid - bid - P - P".
At least in this second case the bidder believes they still have an opportunity to call. (It's stretching credibility to suppose that offender mistook two different calls for passes.)
It seems wrong to rule that an action which could have been intended as a pass and would be deemed to constitute a pass in one situation would not be deemed a pass in the other. (Of course, in the second case offender's LHO still has a chance to call over offender's pass.)
#17
Posted 2014-September-17, 09:42
The White Book position is that picking up the bidding cards can only be deemed a Pass in the pass-out position (or if the opening lead has been made). I think the ruling at the end of §8.22.2 is consistent with that position. If the last paragraph of §1.6.2 or any of §8.22.2 is unclear with respect to that position, perhaps someone can suggest a rewording.
"Robin Barker is a mathematician. ... All highly skilled in their respective fields and clearly accomplished bridge players."
#18
Posted 2014-September-17, 10:39
RMB1, on 2014-September-17, 09:42, said:
The White Book position is that picking up the bidding cards can only be deemed a Pass in the pass-out position (or if the opening lead has been made). I think the ruling at the end of §8.22.2 is consistent with that position. If the last paragraph of §1.6.2 or any of §8.22.2 is unclear with respect to that position, perhaps someone can suggest a rewording.
That's how I read it, so it doesn't need rewording, just an explanation of why anyone should think this is correct.
If I'm in the habit of doing something unorthodox to indicate a pass, why should I be given a chance to call again if I'm made aware of my mistake (that I've misunderstood the auction) unless I do it in the pass-out seat?
#19
Posted 2014-September-17, 10:56
Cascade, on 2014-September-16, 23:52, said:
Having never used written bidding (from what I've read, I think this is only common down under), I wonder if those players also find similar shortcuts. It seems like human nature.
#20
Posted 2014-September-17, 14:20
barmar, on 2014-September-17, 10:56, said:
Very few variations in the use. If anything the tendency is for players to follow the regulations pedantically.
I believe that the USA currently hold only the World Championship For People Who Still Bid Like Your Auntie Gladys - dburn
dunno how to play 4 card majors - JLOGIC
True but I know Standard American and what better reason could I have for playing Precision? - Hideous Hog
Bidding is an estimation of probabilities SJ Simon