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North thought Bergen applied, with 3♦ showing a limit raise.
Then bid 4♥ because ....
South thought no Bergen after an overcall. No alert.
For some reason, South went 1 off in 4♥.
Bergen debacle
#1
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Posted 2014-December-04, 19:12
Matchpoints, club game
North thought Bergen applied, with 3♦ showing a limit raise.
Then bid 4♥ because ....
South thought no Bergen after an overcall. No alert.
For some reason, South went 1 off in 4♥.
North thought Bergen applied, with 3♦ showing a limit raise.
Then bid 4♥ because ....
South thought no Bergen after an overcall. No alert.
For some reason, South went 1 off in 4♥.
#2
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Posted 2014-December-04, 19:28
I also play Bergen on in this situation but some may not. That is how I was taught it many moons ago.
I also don't think this is a limit raise so 3c for me.
As for the 4h bid well....
----
Wht did south think 3d was, natural and weak, I thought that was an alert but perhaps not? In any event on bbo there is "self alert"
In any event this looks like a good teaching moment for each partner and for the director to sort it all out.
I also don't think this is a limit raise so 3c for me.
As for the 4h bid well....
----
Wht did south think 3d was, natural and weak, I thought that was an alert but perhaps not? In any event on bbo there is "self alert"
In any event this looks like a good teaching moment for each partner and for the director to sort it all out.
#3
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Posted 2014-December-04, 19:52
shevek, on 2014-December-04, 19:12, said:
For some reason, South went 1 off in 4♥.
I guess South ruffed the second spade and played a top trump, ducked. Now a second trump is fatal. If South plays instead a diamond and West rises to play a third spade, declarer must ruff and not play trumps, but playing the ace of clubs and ruffing a club gets home. 4H does appear to use the UI if 3D was wrongly explained. 3S normally makes an overtrick so I would probably adjust to this.
I prefer to give the lawmakers credit for stating things for a reason - barmar
#4
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Posted 2014-December-04, 20:56
Isn't South's pass AI to North? I don't think a red psyche of 1H in first chair is a likely possibility.
The real question is whether the MI caused West to bid again. Result adjusted to 3D down whatever n/s or not adjusted at all, depending on that answer. What is the real agreement??
The real question is whether the MI caused West to bid again. Result adjusted to 3D down whatever n/s or not adjusted at all, depending on that answer. What is the real agreement??
"Bidding Spades to show spades can work well." (Kenberg)
#5
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Posted 2014-December-04, 22:19
shevek, on 2014-December-04, 19:12, said:
North thought Bergen applied
So then why did he bid Reverse Bergen?
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Posted 2014-December-04, 22:30
South passed 3♦. North is allowed to know that. End of discussion. No adjustment.
#7
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Posted 2014-December-04, 22:53
ArtK78, on 2014-December-04, 22:30, said:
South passed 3♦. North is allowed to know that. End of discussion. No adjustment.
Maybe.
There is the screens argument.
If West is North's screenmate, North will explain 3♦ as a heart raise. West might infer that South forgot and take his chances against 3♦.
Also, if North thinks he has shown a limit raise, why should he bid 4♥ on a hand worth 3♥? South is still there to wake up. Perhaps South psyched 1♥. Unlikely but North knows this is not the case from the failure to alert 3♦. That's UI.
In Australia, no alert for weak jump shift responses.
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Posted 2014-December-04, 23:58
aguahombre, on 2014-December-04, 20:56, said:
Isn't South's pass AI to North? I don't think a red psyche of 1H in first chair is a likely possibility.
The real question is whether the MI caused West to bid again. Result adjusted to 3D down whatever n/s or not adjusted at all, depending on that answer. What is the real agreement??
The real question is whether the MI caused West to bid again. Result adjusted to 3D down whatever n/s or not adjusted at all, depending on that answer. What is the real agreement??
It's not a question of a psych, or of whether the auction is AI (which it is). South's failure to alert 3♦ is unexpected to North, because North thinks 3♦ is artificial and therefore requires an alert. So because it's unexpected it provides to North the UI that South does not realize North has a heart raise. Passing 3♠ is a logical alternative, so 4♥ is illegal.
NS are the OS, and if West bid 3♠ on the basis of MI, well, since he could make 4, he would not have been damaged by the 3♠ bid. He was damaged by the illegal 4♥ bid, so neither of 3♦ or no adjustment can be right.
--------------------
As for tv, screw it. You aren't missing anything. -- Ken Berg
I have come to realise it is futile to expect or hope a regular club game will be run in accordance with the laws. -- Jillybean
As for tv, screw it. You aren't missing anything. -- Ken Berg
I have come to realise it is futile to expect or hope a regular club game will be run in accordance with the laws. -- Jillybean
#9
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Posted 2014-December-05, 02:20
shevek, on 2014-December-04, 22:53, said:
There is the screens argument.
The "screens argument" is there to help us determine what might have happened in the absence of UI; not to tell us what information the opponents are entitled to.
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#10
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Posted 2014-December-05, 06:50
blackshoe, on 2014-December-04, 23:58, said:
Passing 3♠ is a logical alternative, so 4♥ is illegal.
No. The only UI North has at that point is that his partner was willing to pass a weak natural 3D response. I don't believe we can show North used that UI in his decision to bid 4H.
"Bidding Spades to show spades can work well." (Kenberg)
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Posted 2014-December-05, 09:34
aguahombre, on 2014-December-05, 06:50, said:
No. The only UI North has at that point is that his partner was willing to pass a weak natural 3D response. I don't believe we can show North used that UI in his decision to bid 4H.
Does 3♦ (Bergen) not require an alert? Was there not a failure to alert? How can this not convey to North the information that his partner is unaware that he (North) has a heart raise? What did I miss?
--------------------
As for tv, screw it. You aren't missing anything. -- Ken Berg
I have come to realise it is futile to expect or hope a regular club game will be run in accordance with the laws. -- Jillybean
As for tv, screw it. You aren't missing anything. -- Ken Berg
I have come to realise it is futile to expect or hope a regular club game will be run in accordance with the laws. -- Jillybean
#12
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Posted 2014-December-05, 09:48
blackshoe, on 2014-December-05, 09:34, said:
Does 3♦ (Bergen) not require an alert? Was there not a failure to alert? How can this not convey to North the information that his partner is unaware that he (North) has a heart raise? What did I miss?
You missed the AI of the pass by opener which followed. This tells Responder clearly that Partner missed Bergen. The failure to alert might have been just a failure to alert, but the PASS is obvious and legally usable.
edit: as a side issue: IMO, Bergen is tremendously high-maintenance for the players and the directors. It is abused and confused much too often...in or out of competition, resulting in BIT issues ("But, I was always gonna..") in addition to MI/UI. Inexperienced or infrequent partnerships would do well to abandon Bergen altogether.
This post has been edited by aguahombre: 2014-December-05, 10:04
"Bidding Spades to show spades can work well." (Kenberg)
#13
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Posted 2014-December-05, 10:16
aguahombre, on 2014-December-05, 09:48, said:
You missed the AI of the pass by opener which followed. This tells Responder clearly that Partner missed Bergen. The failure to alert might have been just a failure to alert, but the PASS is obvious and legally usable.
edit: as a side issue: IMO, Bergen is tremendously high-maintenance for the players and the directors. It is abused and confused much too often...in or out of competition, resulting in BIT issues ("But, I was always gonna..") in addition to MI/UI. Inexperienced or infrequent partnerships would do well to abandon Bergen altogether.
edit: as a side issue: IMO, Bergen is tremendously high-maintenance for the players and the directors. It is abused and confused much too often...in or out of competition, resulting in BIT issues ("But, I was always gonna..") in addition to MI/UI. Inexperienced or infrequent partnerships would do well to abandon Bergen altogether.
Since when does AI (as from the fact that partner passed 3♦) trump UI (from the failure to alert)? Does the fact that partner passed mean that responder has no LA to 4♥ when it gets back around to him? How so?
--------------------
As for tv, screw it. You aren't missing anything. -- Ken Berg
I have come to realise it is futile to expect or hope a regular club game will be run in accordance with the laws. -- Jillybean
As for tv, screw it. You aren't missing anything. -- Ken Berg
I have come to realise it is futile to expect or hope a regular club game will be run in accordance with the laws. -- Jillybean
#14
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Posted 2014-December-05, 10:29
blackshoe, on 2014-December-05, 10:16, said:
Since when does AI (as from the fact that partner passed 3♦) trump UI (from the failure to alert)? Does the fact that partner passed mean that responder has no LA to 4♥ when it gets back around to him? How so?
It means Responder isn't using UI, so whether there is a logical alternative is moot. You can use AI and you have AI. Don't think of one "trumping" the other.
Change the situation a little bit, and THEN there would be an issue:
1H-(1S)-3D
3H...Opener didn't alert 3D as Bergen, but bid 3H. Responder could decide the failure to alert was just an oversight --- or he could decide the failure was because he forgot Bergen and Holds something like 7-0 in the red suits.
That would be using UI, and doing anything but pass would be illegal because Responder has the same Bergen hand he started with and Opener's 3H declines game.
This post has been edited by aguahombre: 2014-December-05, 10:44
"Bidding Spades to show spades can work well." (Kenberg)
#15
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Posted 2014-December-05, 10:52
I think we have to consider what North would have done had the 3D bid been alerted and explained as Bergen, but South had nevertheless passed. If I was North I wouldn't have a clue what was going on, so I would pass to let South continue to do whatever it was he was doing.
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#16
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Posted 2014-December-05, 11:09
I don't understand how the pass of 3♦ can possibly be AI to North. Having already "shown" his hand (plus a card he invented) North has no business bidding again.
When a deaf person goes to court is it still called a hearing?
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Posted 2014-December-05, 11:21
aguahombre, on 2014-December-05, 10:29, said:
It means Responder isn't using UI, so whether there is a logical alternative is moot. You can use AI and you have AI. Don't think of one "trumping" the other.
Change the situation a little bit, and THEN there would be an issue:
1H-(1S)-3D
3H...Opener didn't alert 3D as Bergen, but bid 3H. Responder could decide the failure to alert was just an oversight --- or he could decide the failure was because he forgot Bergen and Holds something like 7-0 in the red suits.
That would be using UI, and doing anything but pass would be illegal because Responder has the same Bergen hand he started with and Opener's 3H declines game.
Change the situation a little bit, and THEN there would be an issue:
1H-(1S)-3D
3H...Opener didn't alert 3D as Bergen, but bid 3H. Responder could decide the failure to alert was just an oversight --- or he could decide the failure was because he forgot Bergen and Holds something like 7-0 in the red suits.
That would be using UI, and doing anything but pass would be illegal because Responder has the same Bergen hand he started with and Opener's 3H declines game.
This is not the way I learned to deal with Law 16. Where are you getting this?
--------------------
As for tv, screw it. You aren't missing anything. -- Ken Berg
I have come to realise it is futile to expect or hope a regular club game will be run in accordance with the laws. -- Jillybean
As for tv, screw it. You aren't missing anything. -- Ken Berg
I have come to realise it is futile to expect or hope a regular club game will be run in accordance with the laws. -- Jillybean
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Posted 2014-December-05, 11:45
gordontd, on 2014-December-05, 10:52, said:
I think we have to consider what North would have done had the 3D bid been alerted and explained as Bergen, but South had nevertheless passed. If I was North I wouldn't have a clue what was going on, so I would pass to let South continue to do whatever it was he was doing.
While in general I think it's a good idea to consider "What would you have done if partner had correctly alerted/explained, and then took the action they took?" there are cases where there are no hands consistent with that except outright psyches. I think I am allowed to assume in those situations that partner (or I) forgot the method rather than being required to play partner to have done something completely bizarre on purpose.
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Posted 2014-December-05, 11:46
ggwhiz, on 2014-December-05, 11:09, said:
I don't understand how the pass of 3♦ can possibly be AI to North.
It's AI because it's part of the auction. What is UI is the information passed by the failure to alert 3D - ie that the reason South passed 3D was due to misunderstanding 3D, not for any other reason. That UI demonstrably suggests bidding 4H to North, and I believe Pass to be a logical alternative.
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#20
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Posted 2014-December-05, 11:47
jeffford76, on 2014-December-05, 11:45, said:
While in general I think it's a good idea to consider "What would you have done if partner had correctly alerted/explained, and then took the action they took?" there are cases where there are no hands consistent with that except outright psyches. I think I am allowed to assume in those situations that partner (or I) forgot the method rather than being required to play partner to have done something completely bizarre on purpose.
Here you don't need to make any assumptions - partner will get another bid if you just pass.
Gordon Rainsford
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