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How would you have bid them? And after the final pass, how confident would you be that you had explored all the possibilities and ended up in the best place?
Scoring is IMPs, if that makes a difference.
Bid these hands, please We got overboard, but got lucky
#1
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Posted 2014-March-11, 06:54
We got lucky on this hand from last night. We ended up in a poor 6♥ which made on a mis-defence and a lucky layout.
How would you have bid them? And after the final pass, how confident would you be that you had explored all the possibilities and ended up in the best place?
Scoring is IMPs, if that makes a difference.
How would you have bid them? And after the final pass, how confident would you be that you had explored all the possibilities and ended up in the best place?
Scoring is IMPs, if that makes a difference.
#2
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Posted 2014-March-11, 07:50
Who dealt ?
With S as dealer we get to 4♥ trivially, I'm guessing N dealt
1♣-1♥
2♦-2♥
3♠-4♥
4♠(KC)-5♣(1)
5♦(Q?)-5♥(no)
With S as dealer we get to 4♥ trivially, I'm guessing N dealt
1♣-1♥
2♦-2♥
3♠-4♥
4♠(KC)-5♣(1)
5♦(Q?)-5♥(no)
#3
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Posted 2014-March-11, 07:55
Yes, North was dealer.
#4
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Posted 2014-March-11, 08:12
I can see the strong hand has some problems depending on the re-bid after his reverse. After a start of 1C 1H, 2D for me a rebid of 2H is a one round force indicating 5 or more H, 2S would be artificial less than 5H and 7 or less hcp, so a direct raise of either minor is 100% GF. I Think most will just repeat H with the intention of raising C later. The opening hand now needs to make a bid other than a simple 3C after 2H to create a GF. I can not splinter in S with just 2 trumps facing what can be a weak hand and 5 trumps. I suppose I am now faced with choice of cheating and repeating D, are bid 2S and set up a force and discover what partner does next which may become confusing, or raise H a level which will still indicate my short S although partner may pass, I think this is the choice I would make at the table. Responder will just bid game.
#5
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Posted 2014-March-11, 09:07
1♣-1♥; 2♦-2♥ (5+, less than 8 HCP, NF) ; 3♥ (NF) - 4♥.
The key for me is that South has to realize that it's a double fit and that the Q♠ is likely worthless. With North reversing into Diamonds, there are WAY too many misplaced points for any slam to be likely. While North has a really nice hand, I'd be afraid of being tapped in Spades, or trump pulled and then Spades played, and the K♣ being in the wrong hand. Therefore, South takes it slow with 2♥, North only invites with 3♥, and South gladly accepting.
The key for me is that South has to realize that it's a double fit and that the Q♠ is likely worthless. With North reversing into Diamonds, there are WAY too many misplaced points for any slam to be likely. While North has a really nice hand, I'd be afraid of being tapped in Spades, or trump pulled and then Spades played, and the K♣ being in the wrong hand. Therefore, South takes it slow with 2♥, North only invites with 3♥, and South gladly accepting.
"It's not enough to win the tricks that belong to you. Try also for some that belong to the opponents."
"Learn from the mistakes of others. You won't live long enough to make them all yourself."
"One advantage of bad bidding is that you get practice at playing atrocious contracts."
-Alfred Sheinwold
"Learn from the mistakes of others. You won't live long enough to make them all yourself."
"One advantage of bad bidding is that you get practice at playing atrocious contracts."
-Alfred Sheinwold
#6
- AQT92 AQ --- QJ6532
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Posted 2014-March-11, 09:14
1C-1H; 2D-4H
ahydra
ahydra
#7
- World International Master without a clue
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Posted 2014-March-11, 16:50
1♣-1♥
2♦-2NT slow down
3♦-3♥ reject the slow down
4♥-pass
2♦-2NT slow down
3♦-3♥ reject the slow down
4♥-pass
#8
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Posted 2014-March-11, 17:08
1c=1h
2d=2h(5+, weakish)
now north can rebid 3 or 4h and you stop in 4.
2d=2h(5+, weakish)
now north can rebid 3 or 4h and you stop in 4.
#9
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Posted 2014-March-11, 17:43
hmm.
1♣-1♥;
2♦-2♠ ("Leb");
3♣ (can't or won't play 2NT)-3♥;
4♥-p?
Maybe it is a problem as xxx QJTxxx x Kxx may do the same; but *should* be happier with "don't want to play NT" and "likes clubs" enough to take a push (of course, I don't want to be in 6♥ with that either. 6♣ though...)
1♣-1♥;
2♦-2♠ ("Leb");
3♣ (can't or won't play 2NT)-3♥;
4♥-p?
Maybe it is a problem as xxx QJTxxx x Kxx may do the same; but *should* be happier with "don't want to play NT" and "likes clubs" enough to take a push (of course, I don't want to be in 6♥ with that either. 6♣ though...)
When I go to sea, don't fear for me, Fear For The Storm -- Birdie and the Swansong (tSCoSI)
#10
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Posted 2014-March-11, 18:28
It's fairly easy to get to 4H. But nobody's sequence here really investigates the Club slam. Is it possible to do it all?
#11
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Posted 2014-March-11, 20:37
EricK, on 2014-March-11, 18:28, said:
It's fairly easy to get to 4H. But nobody's sequence here really investigates the Club slam. Is it possible to do it all?
I tried the best i can to come up with some auction to get to 6♣. Even when biased by seeing both hands, i decided no way i can find it with the methods i have in my hand.
I had to start
1♣---2♦ (2 dia showing a wjs in either major, 2♥ would be mild invitation 6 card hearts)
By the time I show my major is hearts it was too high to efficiently show/ask the features of S hand. I would have better space if my hand was mild invitational on another hand where slam would be more likely, because then i would have started 2♥.. Basically the style i play wjs and going thru 2♦ is not the best toy when 2 hands need a lot of bidding to investigate a borderline slam.
"Genius has its own limitations, however stupidity has no such boundaries!"
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"Well to be perfectly honest, in my humble opinion, of course without offending anyone who thinks differently from my point of view, but also by looking into this matter in a different perspective and without being condemning of one's view's and by trying to make it objectified, and by considering each and every one's valid opinion, I honestly believe that I completely forgot what I was going to say."
"It's only when a mosquito lands on your testicles that you realize there is always a way to solve problems without using violence!"
"Well to be perfectly honest, in my humble opinion, of course without offending anyone who thinks differently from my point of view, but also by looking into this matter in a different perspective and without being condemning of one's view's and by trying to make it objectified, and by considering each and every one's valid opinion, I honestly believe that I completely forgot what I was going to say."
#12
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Posted 2014-March-11, 22:07
The game bidders got it right. The ♣ slam is only 26.5% (Chance of taking 6 tricks in ♣s. The ♥ slam is half that.
Marshall Miles advised bid all slams no worse than a finesse. We need a finesse plus more in ♣.
I am surprised no one opened North 2♣ given a 3-loser. I think Edgar K. advocated that approach. I guess we like reversing more...
Marshall Miles advised bid all slams no worse than a finesse. We need a finesse plus more in ♣.
I am surprised no one opened North 2♣ given a 3-loser. I think Edgar K. advocated that approach. I guess we like reversing more...
Be the partner you want to play with.
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Trust demands integrity, balance and collaboration.
District 11
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Steve Moese
#13
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Posted 2014-March-11, 22:50
I didn't investigate Clubs, because in my example, partner supported the Hearts but DID NOT FORCE TO GAME. If partner's Clubs are so good, (s)he will make a different bid rather than my NF 3♥. While I've never really assigned meanings to any bids other than 3M and 3NT after the first four bids in my auction, I think 2♠ would be artificial and forcing, and then could clarify a 1246 or 1345 with a great Club suit over whatever partner bid.
"It's not enough to win the tricks that belong to you. Try also for some that belong to the opponents."
"Learn from the mistakes of others. You won't live long enough to make them all yourself."
"One advantage of bad bidding is that you get practice at playing atrocious contracts."
-Alfred Sheinwold
"Learn from the mistakes of others. You won't live long enough to make them all yourself."
"One advantage of bad bidding is that you get practice at playing atrocious contracts."
-Alfred Sheinwold
#14
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Posted 2014-March-11, 23:56
mcphee, on 2014-March-11, 08:12, said:
I can see the strong hand has some problems depending on the re-bid after his reverse. After a start of 1C 1H, 2D for me a rebid of 2H is a one round force indicating 5 or more H, 2S would be artificial less than 5H and 7 or less hcp, so a direct raise of either minor is 100% GF. I Think most will just repeat H with the intention of raising C later. The opening hand now needs to make a bid other than a simple 3C after 2H to create a GF. I can not splinter in S with just 2 trumps facing what can be a weak hand and 5 trumps. I suppose I am now faced with choice of cheating and repeating D, are bid 2S and set up a force and discover what partner does next which may become confusing, or raise H a level which will still indicate my short S although partner may pass, I think this is the choice I would make at the table. Responder will just bid game.
I agree with not playing 6 of anything. Neither slam is good.
I disagree with your assertion about opening the hand 2C. I think this is a poor opening on this hand.
2C 2D
3C
Now you are at the 3 level and have still not shown your fine D suit and know nothing about pd's hand. Even if you respond 2H to 2C, you are still at the 3 level without having shown Ds.
"The King of Hearts a broadsword bears, the Queen of Hearts a rose." W. H. Auden.
#15
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Posted 2014-March-12, 03:25
Just to clarify, I don't think you should be in the club slam on these hands. But on similar hands 6C will be much better than 6H (and 5C will be at least as good as 4H). It seems a shame never to mention the Club support. But am I asking too much to want to investigate everything and still confidently stop in the right place on these hands?
#16
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Posted 2014-March-12, 03:35
EricK, on 2014-March-12, 03:25, said:
Just to clarify, I don't think you should be in the club slam on these hands.
Confession : When i saw both hands, for some reason i saw it as we do not have any losers in other suits except than clubs suit and tried to find a reasonable auction to get to club slam, and i could not (LOL) Thinking that system has some flaw when the slam is depending on not losing 2 tricks from AQT7xx vs 9xx with sufficient entries.
"Genius has its own limitations, however stupidity has no such boundaries!"
"It's only when a mosquito lands on your testicles that you realize there is always a way to solve problems without using violence!"
"Well to be perfectly honest, in my humble opinion, of course without offending anyone who thinks differently from my point of view, but also by looking into this matter in a different perspective and without being condemning of one's view's and by trying to make it objectified, and by considering each and every one's valid opinion, I honestly believe that I completely forgot what I was going to say."
"It's only when a mosquito lands on your testicles that you realize there is always a way to solve problems without using violence!"
"Well to be perfectly honest, in my humble opinion, of course without offending anyone who thinks differently from my point of view, but also by looking into this matter in a different perspective and without being condemning of one's view's and by trying to make it objectified, and by considering each and every one's valid opinion, I honestly believe that I completely forgot what I was going to say."
#17
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Posted 2014-March-12, 09:23
1♣ = 15+ nat/bal or 18+ any
... - 1♦ = (almost) any non-GF
1♠ = art GF
... - 2♠ = max one-suited hand with good hearts
2NT = relay
... - 3♣ = 3 spades
3♦ = relay
... - 3♥ = 3 clubs
3♠ = relay
... - 3NT = 3613
4♣ = relay
... - 4♥ = 1 control
Slam is not going to be great even if partner has a perfect hand (♥KQJT9x or ♣Kxx).
... - 1♦ = (almost) any non-GF
1♠ = art GF
... - 2♠ = max one-suited hand with good hearts
2NT = relay
... - 3♣ = 3 spades
3♦ = relay
... - 3♥ = 3 clubs
3♠ = relay
... - 3NT = 3613
4♣ = relay
... - 4♥ = 1 control
Slam is not going to be great even if partner has a perfect hand (♥KQJT9x or ♣Kxx).
(-: Zel :-)
#18
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Posted 2014-March-12, 09:51
I think my previous statement (that with QJxxxx Kxx in the rounds instead of the hand we have, it's likely that that South hand won't put on the brakes as badly as with the hand in question) is the best hope of finding the club slam. I'm still concerned with the North hand with the "obvious misfit" we have (in my auction), the 5 level will be too high, and even if it's not, 5♣= loses to 4♥=.
When I go to sea, don't fear for me, Fear For The Storm -- Birdie and the Swansong (tSCoSI)
#19
- Andy Bowles
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Posted 2014-March-12, 11:54
If the South hand is a 1♥ response, this looks normal:
1♣-1♥
2♦-2♥
2♠-3♣
3♥-4♥
2♥ = F1, 5+ hearts
2♠ = FSF, game-forcing. The North hand is too strong to make a non-forcing bid
3♥ = a doubleton, because North didn't splinter on the previous round
However, I'd normally make a weak jump shift on the South hand. After that, the auction ought to be much the same as if South had opened a weak two.
1♣-1♥
2♦-2♥
2♠-3♣
3♥-4♥
2♥ = F1, 5+ hearts
2♠ = FSF, game-forcing. The North hand is too strong to make a non-forcing bid
3♥ = a doubleton, because North didn't splinter on the previous round
However, I'd normally make a weak jump shift on the South hand. After that, the auction ought to be much the same as if South had opened a weak two.
This post has been edited by gnasher: 2014-March-12, 11:57
... that would still not be conclusive proof, before someone wants to explain that to me as well as if I was a 5 year-old. - gwnn
#20
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Posted 2014-March-13, 06:54
gnasher, on 2014-March-12, 11:54, said:
3♥ = a doubleton, because North didn't splinter on the previous round
Would you splinter with a singleton ♠A or ♠K here, Andy?
(-: Zel :-)