[adhoc3]

This might be a chicken thing, but did annoy me for a long time.

It was a local club TM tournament. I called TD for an odd 4♥. The opps' bidding went:

1♥-2♥
3♥-4♥

My pd and I kept silent. They made 620 without any difficulty. When they put their cards back into the holder, I found out this wa a very lucky game: opps had 18 hcps all together, 9 for each. The opener was on the 2 nd seat. The shape of their hands was quite normal, something like 5422. So I called TD, to my despair he said it was normal that players drifted away form their bidding card, no restrictions on psychic bidding for this tournament, he could do nothing about it.

I believe this was misbehavior of the opps, but what can I do about it? What would you do if were on BBO tournament?

Many thanks.

[Walddk]

With 9 opposite 9 hcp and no shortage in either hand they must have been very lucky to make their vulnerable game. I suspect that the contract needed a few finesses and breaks and that they were all on.

However, by looking at your description of what happened they did nothing wrong regarding the bridge laws, so the table result must stand. I would not have ruled any differently if this had taken place on BBO.

There is no rule, or law, against being lucky, and I do not agree with your statement that they misbehaved. Where did they violate any law? By the look of it they both gambled and won. One has to accept that.

Roland

[kfgauss]

I was at a bridge club in France and miscounted my points (I gave myself another Ace -- not sure how really, as the usual problem would be to think your 1's were small cards) and opened 1NT with 11 points.

My partner aggressively invited with only 7 hcp and my RHO had something like a very nice 6-3-3-1 18 count and thought for a while and ended up bidding 3S, which was passed out and made 5. The other tables were all in 4S.

The director decided to adjust due to the "double psyche" (my 11 hcp 1NT opening and partner's 7 hcp invite), giving both sides Ave+. This was probably an incorrect ruling, but everyone was happy and nothing good would have come of complaining. [There may be laws regarding psyches which are fielded, but this one seems anti-fielded to me (though partner did "extend the preempt" as it were).]

In any case, it seems reasonably likely to me that your opponents were either feeling frisky or miscounted something (or both!) and got to a lucky game which made. If you play against these opponents again and something similar happens, perhaps you should start to worry (unless there are many more strange boards which go poorly for them -- then they're just bad), but I really wouldn't worry about it at this point.

Andy

[Gerben42]

Quote

as the usual problem would be to think your 1's were small cards

Been there! Hands like this look so depressing:

---

And partner anti-fielded for sure. Perhaps he was trying to save you:
Partner, please check your cards for hidden "1s", if you find one bid 3NT.

[McBruce]

A local TD once provided hand records for his games by having his sister look at the deals and write out the hands on a form, which was quickly photocopied. Trouble was, the sister was not a bridge player and we got suits like KJ64A, QT654A, etc.

The original poster, if in the ACBL, should have written the full deal down after the game and sent it to the Unit Recorder or a Unit official. If these players are cheating, and enough suspicious reports are received, they may face the music from an ethics committee at some point.

People bid and make 18-point games and 23-point slams all the time. This is a very weak case to base a cheating allegation on, from what has been presented.

[joker_gib]

How on earth could you find a way to cheat in order to bid "winning" games when you have 2 flat 9 counts ????

As Justin says : 3♥ was a preempt (not understood by his partner) and 3 finesses and 2 lucky breaks later they made game !


Alain

[DelfinoD]

adhoc3, on Oct 12 2005, 11:14 PM, said:

I believe this was misbehavior of the opps, but what can I do about it?

I'm sorry to say that, but if anyone misbehaved it was you Well personally I would be ashamed to call a TD in this case. But even if you did so what did you tell him? You can't just call a TD and say: I don't like opps bidding, please change the score.

[barmar]

Was the lucky game makable due to their combined cards, or did it also require a specific layout of the defenders' cards?

If you're going to accuse someone of cheating, you should at least have some theory about how they did it. If they're using signals, they can only divulge information about their own hands, not the opponents'. Did you think they got hold of hand records, or heard conversation from another table?

Sometimes players bid poorly and luck out. It happens enough that we even have a term for it: a "fix". And unless you have a specific form of cheating that you suspect, this seems more likely.

[olegru]

If I will express my real emotions about the idea of author of original post, I probable will be banned.
In a real (not virtual) club, opponents got to 4♥ with 18 pc and flat distribution. How on the hell they were supposed to know all finesses are gonna work? Even if one of them had shown his hand to another it can't help them to find this game.
You got unlucky on that board. And what?
I was once in you opponents possition.
I oppened 1NT (15-17), partner had 11 flat points with 4333 distribution, asked Stayman, and after I replied 2♠ just bid invitational 3♠ wich I passed.
Underbid of couse, but with flat distribution and very bad points it was not complitely unreasonable. As it happened my partner was right. Opponent's spade divided 5-0, ather suits didn't behave too. No finesse works. I got 1 down - top, because everyone else tryed to play game and got at least down 2.
After play finished one of our opponents starts screaming for director and complain about our "cheating." What should I feel about it? What would you feel?
Why they think they have rights to insult people without any reasons? Do you think it is not insult if you are screaming all over the room to director something like "I believe they are cheating?"
What should they do is quietly came to directors desk after the round and report him in private about "wierd situation." If director will have number of reports in his "black notebook" he can start invistigation.

[adhoc3]

I'm not mean to hurt those inocent people who was accused for cheating. Sorry for Olegru, this post reminded your painful memory.

1♥2♥3♥4♥ maybe normal or lucky for beginners but really rare for experienced palyers. When TD came, I only requested for an explanation, which I thought I was entitled just because of the opps's bidding beyond their posted bidding card.

Form the replies, it seems I do not have such right. I cant commence TD or ethic committee to proceed with invistigation by just asking questions, i.e., the responsibility of raising evidence is on me. Ok, thanks.

Andy is right, I shall not worry for just 1 board. But I do hope the host of the tournament or the host of the club, not any individual player, produce records of all these odd hands to find out if it repeatly happens on particular players.

[Gerben42]

They had a misunderstanding and made their bad contract. Happens. It probably happens to beginners more often than to experienced players, but it still happens.
They DID NOT cheat.

Please tell me what you think what was the illegal action.
Was it
a) open 1♥
b) respond 2♥
c) rebid 3♥
d) bid 4♥

Which of those was illegal?
There is no law against bad bidding.

[mycroft]

You are allowed full explanation of their *agreements* and partnership experience. You are not, however, entitled to the contents of their hands, and if their hand doesn't match their agreement - provided they can give evidence that that truly is their agreement, and they don't have experience of this kind of action before - that's their prerogative, whether deliberate (psychic call or deviation) or accidental (misbid, forget).

If one thought they were playing 1-2-3 stop, and they weren't, well, then lucky misbid. If they misinformed you as to their agreements, you may have a case. But bad bids (and, in fact, infractions) don't always produce good scores to the opponents, much as they seem to expect it.

In the really old days, I hit a pair of LOLs who had this auction:

1D-2D;
3D-4D;
5D-6D. No Alerts, no artificial meanings. Cold, of course.

Michael.

[mpefritz]

4♥ bidder probably thought pard had an invitaitional hand and 3♥ was a game try. 3♥ bidder was probably thinking 1-2-3 is a "preempt" and pard is not allowed to bid (info you are allowed to know).

Would you have brought this to the attention of everyone if they had gone down and you got a top?

fritz

[McBruce]

Funniest uncontested auction I ever saw was this one:

1NT
2NT
3NT
4NT
5NT
pass

Down one.

We didn't ask.

[kgr]

adhoc3, on Oct 13 2005, 06:14 AM, said:

This might be a chicken thing, but did annoy me for a long time.

It was a local club TM tournament. I called TD for an odd 4♥. The opps' bidding went:

1♥-2♥
3♥-4♥

My pd and I kept silent. They made 620 without any difficulty. When they put their cards back into the holder, I found out this wa a very lucky game: opps had 18 hcps all together, 9 for each. The opener was on the 2 nd seat. The shape of their hands was quite normal, something like 5422. So I called TD, to my despair he said it was normal that players drifted away form their bidding card, no restrictions on psychic bidding for this tournament, he could do nothing about it.

I believe this was misbehavior of the opps, but what can I do about it? What would you do if were on BBO tournament?

Many thanks.

Let me give you some support:
What probably happened in a club tournement is that this hand was played a couple of times before and yours opps did hear that 4H was cold. Then they 'decided' that 1-2-3-4H was the most reasonable to get to 4H. The real issue was to loud talking at the other table?
I would just accept the result as you can't prove anything of the above. (Or report it to the TD in case it happens more).