[jillybean]

Scoring: MP

1nt(p)2♣(all pass)

---

Its an indy, you don't ban psyches.
You are called to the table by South - what do you do?

I need some help to understand psyches as opposed to outright disruptive bidding.

tyia
jb

[hrothgar]

Just so I'm sure...

It looks as if the 2♣ bidder called the director on his own partner?
Weird, but I've seen weirder

Comment 1: The powers that be decided long ago that psyches are supposed to be "random" in nature. Players are not have any kind of agreement regarding where and when they are supposed to psyche. Accordingly, I don't see how we can rule against a player for chosing to make a non-systemic bid on an occasion that it doesn't make sense "systemically". I recognize that some Zones attempt to regulate psyches based on the presumption that they randomize the game. This has always struck me as part of the whole logically fallacy that psyche exist...

Comment 2: I'm not particularly big on first seat, red versus white psyches. It strikes me as a losing tactic. With this said and done, players are allowed to make bad decisions. If we start throwing out of tournaments because they do something stupid, where do we draw the line? For example, should we also ban players who bid Stayman with 5-5 in the majors?

Comment 3: There is an old saying: "Bridge is a partnership game" or some such. I'm opposed to penalizing the N/S partnership for their psyche. However, the thought of being able to penalize North for his own ludicrous directors call is ALMOST enough for me to hit the parntership with a penalty.

[jillybean]

Justin - youre right but I believe there is a difference between psyches and destructive bidding -(that is from comments I have read here and recieved from others)
Where does this bid belong and how do I recognize the difference or as Richard says should I even be bothered trying to regulate good, bad, destructive psyches.

Richard - yes south called me after his partner opened 1nt.

[olegru]

Write Norths name in "black notebook." If I would see him one more time doing such a risky psyche I would ask him to play more seriouse in my tournaments. After third time I would ban him from my tournament.

[hrothgar]

jillybean2, on Oct 14 2005, 08:19 PM, said:

Justin - youre right but I believe there is a difference between psyches and destructive bidding -(that is from comments I have read here and recieved from people regarding other psyches)
Where does this bid belong and how do I recognize the difference or as Richard says should I even try to regulate psyches?

Richard - yes south called me after his partner opened 1nt.

Traditionally when people are discussing "destructive" bids they are referring to systemic bids like a multi 2♦ or a 1♠ fert. For example, the ACBL has decided that an Ekrens 2♦ opening showing 4+ Hearts and 4+ Spades is destructive because its primary purpose is to prevent the opponents from finding their best fit.

In this thread, you seem to be using destructive as synonomous with "random". I think that it is dangerous to do so.

I have seen some lines of argument that attempt to blur the distinction. For example, arguments regaridng Convention Disruption often hinge arround random results that occur when players don't fully understand the conventions that they are using. In general, Convention Disruption don't carry much weight, however, there are isolated case where they are actually enshrined in the local Laws. (Ghestem misunderstandings are the classic example)

As I noted earlier:

A regulatory structure that simultaneously maintains

1. Psyches are legal
2. Psyches must be random
3. Random bids are destructive
4. Random bids are not allowed

is logically inconsistent

[hotShot]

A psyche is a bid made with the intention to disturb opponents ability to find their best contract, hoping to get away with with a good score.

A disruptive bid is a bid made with the intention to punish partner with a very bad score or push an opponent with a very good score, not even hoping to get away.

In this case, North opened 1NT hoping that partner would bid Stayman, so that he can pass. If South raised to 3NT or more, he would have to take a bad score.

[jillybean]

Sometimes it is unclear to me that a bid is a psyche as opposed to lets call them stink bids, subtler than 7nt. I would not open 1nt as a psyche here, I know that does not make it illegal but it does make it difficult to make a decision.

I have just found reference to frivolous psyching, can someone give me some examples of what a frivolous psyche would look like?

The EBU Orange Book section 6 Psychic Bidding

6.1.5 Frivolous psyching, suggesting you have lost interest in the competition or are enjoying yourself at the expense of others, is a breach of
the Laws. (Law 74A2, 74B1, 74C6)

[candybar]

Opening 1N with no points and long clubs is fairly common, and very effective, as psyches go. It is not illegal and not disruptive.

[jillybean]

Here's another psyche from a "world class" player, in an indy after a couple of not so good boards. His partner asked that I ban this player from my tournaments.
This just looks like a rotten bid rather than a tactical psyche...

Scoring: MP

---

South opened 3♣

[Walddk]

jillybean2, on Oct 17 2005, 07:08 PM, said:

Here's another psyche from a "world class" player, in an indy after a couple of not so good boards. His partner asked that I ban this player from my tournaments.
This just looks like an awful bid rather than a tactical psyche...

Scoring: MP

---

South opened 3♣

Silly (I could find other less flattering words).

Roland

[jillybean]

Silly but still legal? Should these bids be allowed in tournaments, in indys?

[Walddk]

jillybean2, on Oct 17 2005, 07:17 PM, said:

Silly but still legal? Should these bids be allowed in tournaments, in indys?

Legal yes. Psyches as well as silly bids are part of the game. Should they be allowed? Certainly, until you change the laws.

Roland

[pigpenz]

sure, its part of bridge they should be allowed unless you want to stipulate the level of bridge players you are intending to hold the competition for.

[jillybean]

Sorry to labor the point – there does seem to be some controls on psyches in both the EBU and ACBL, I haven’t looked further than that.

Excessive Psychic Bidding
Frivolous Psychic Bidding
Unsportsmanlike Psychic Bidding

Page 37-40
http://web2.acbl.org/documentlibrary/clubs...Decisions04.pdf

It appears these laws are there to protect the field against reckless bidding as opposed to tactical psyches. I need help in understanding and applying them.

jb

[helene_t]

Intentionally bad bids are not allowed. Beginner's mistakes are allowed. It's as simple as that.

If someone opens 7NT on ten-pointer and redoubles you judge that it's an intentionally bad bid, even if the player has Novice on his profile.

You should be very careful to declare a bad bid "intentional" in less trivial cases. Especially when it comes to psyches. It is not easy to say what kind of psyches are meaningfull and which are not, let alone to say whether some unknown player could plausibly have considered some bid to be a meaningful psyche.

It could be argued that people who put "advanced" on their profile are not expected to make elementary mistakes. But is it consistent to accuse someone of being unethical while at the same time taking his self-rating serious? A lot of otherwise nice people have inflated self esteme. Besides, considering the level of many "experts" it is understandable that some beginners may think they are World Class. Some people joke with self-rating, or inflate their rating because they know that as low intermediates they actually do quite well in the expert-only turneys.

It could also be argued that novices are not expected/supposed to play with advanced toys like psyches. I have some understanding for that line of thought but it's a slipery-slope, and highly subjective. Some devoted 4-card major teachers believe that beginners are not supposed to know about 5-card majors, and vice versa. In general, I think you make life to complicated for yourself if you introduce turney-specific rules.

Legal issues aside, it is in everybody's interest that the turneys are not only run correct but also pleasant. With that in mind, I agree with olegru. You can tell this North that allthough strictly legal, this kind of bidding is not appreciated. This cannot be a reason to adjust the score, but maybe to blacklist North if he continues to bid like that.

[cherdano]

Walddk, on Oct 17 2005, 07:13 PM, said:

jillybean2, on Oct 17 2005, 07:08 PM, said:

Here's another psyche from a "world class" player, in an indy after a couple of not so good boards.  His partner asked that I ban this player from my tournaments.
This just looks like an awful bid rather than a tactical psyche...

Dealer: South Vul: Both Scoring: MP

♠ xx ♥ AQ10x ♦ Kxx ♣ xxxx

South opened 3♣

Silly (I could find other less flattering words).

Like "Yeah, world class."?