[Posleda]

I am getting angry about increasing number of tourneys with prohibited kibs. I dont bear in mind paid tourneys, I mean only the free ones. The ratio comes near to 50 % !!!

AFAIK the TD's reason is only one: people use kibbing for cheating. Some naive TDs think they kill cheating this way. The clever ones hope the number of cheaters will be not so high as they think it is. I think if somebody wants to cheat he will. There are so many methods to do so...

What are the costs ? The main goal of online bridge, to connect people, is damaged. I may not to watch my friends or players I am teaching, I may not to learn from experts. I can't to be a sub, because I dont know the number of boards to play. The players play in the cave.

Do you think there are many players who are cheating in free tournaments ? Why are they doing so ? The main reasons people play bridge for may be two: fun and result. Cheaters can't have any fun from play, they prefer result and probably have fun from these results. Most of others would say they prefer fun. In such a case

LET THE CHEATERS CHEAT !

Let them fun from results and let fun from play to yourself ! What do you need more than a feeling you have played as best as you could ? Only your ego could want also good results, don't ? Take care about your own play and don't care about opponents only if you want to learn from them.

Suspicions from cheating and fight with cheating harm much more than cheating. The damages from this non-kibs kind of war against cheating are much greater than the damages from cheating itself ! Thats the real victory of cheaters ! We punish ourselves !

Dear TDs: dont kill the spirit of this nice game !

[jillybean]

If I know a tournament has a ban on kibitzers I will not play or sub in it.

While there is support for these tournaments nothing will change, perhaps most players dont care if kibitzers are allowed or not.

jb

[candybar]

Well said, but I think the cheating is far, far less than these people fear.

Inexpert players, inexperienced TDs, and those not familiar with worldwide systems always think that anything different than what they would have done is either unfair, sabotage, or cheating.

We need TDs who are expert enough, either as players or as TDs, to know when something is truly a case of possible cheating. Until then, the only way they know to deal with what they don't understand is to worry that it is cheating and ban it.

This takes the form of (1) personal "rules" for tournaments, often that violate the Laws, such as 'no psyches' or 'no 1N with singleton' stupidities, or (2) paranoid reactions such as banning kibitizers and adjusting scores for any bid they didn't understand.

The only real hope for changing this situation is to educate the TDs.

[Elianna]

While I have never run a tournament that bars kibs (and actually am really annoyed by these) I think you may be missing another point: some players are shy, and don't want to be watched, so they may prefer playing in a no-kib tournament.

[guggie]

A really good argument "to let cheaters cheat" I read on this forum some time before: it is very good for your technique. They will play double dummy so you are up against best defense best dummy play and so on. You should encourage cheating, its a free bridge master;-)

[barmar]

Elianna, on Oct 16 2005, 12:05 AM, said:

While I have never run a tournament that bars kibs (and actually am really annoyed by these) I think you may be missing another point: some players are shy, and don't want to be watched, so they may prefer playing in a no-kib tournament.

But I rarely see "no kibbitzers will be allowed" in the tourney descriptions (I just checked all the tourneys currently running, and none of the no-kit tourneys mention it in their descriptions), so how do these players know ahead of time which tourneys to enter or avoid?

If we can't get these folks to open up the tourneys to kibs, it would make things easier if they would at least put something in the descriptions. It's a PITA having to click on each tourney looking for one that allows kibs.

[Gerben42]

How can I check if suspicious characters are cheating if I cannot kibitz them... Now there's though material!

[bestguru]

I'll take the cheaters over the nutters and the swing seekers any day. I have no clue how well I did in an 8 board tourney full of swingers; at least I'd have a reasonable par to compare if everyone else were cheating.

[Brandal]

Gerben42, on Oct 17 2005, 10:19 AM, said:

How can I check if suspicious characters are cheating if I cannot kibitz them... Now there's though material!

While I sympathize with and understand pay tournaments
barring kibs........

I honestly don't see the point of free tournaments going
that way,just now I found ONE from about 10 tournaments
allowing me to kib.

I really enjoy kibbing friends playing tournaments,almost as
much as playing them,and I hardly ever get to do that anymore.

Watching the "disease" spreading,it seems almost like a trendy
thing to do....."everyone else is barring kibs,must be a reason,
better go with the flow" kinda thing.

oh well,rant over for now

[Al_U_Card]

Can't they arrange kibbing or not on a table to table basis? If you don't want kibbitzers then the kibbers are blacked out for the round......better than not being allowed in at all...

[McBruce]

OK, here's what's wrong with this oft-repeated thread:

1) No TD who bars kibitzers thinks that it will eliminate cheating. We think it MAY cut down on cheating, but nobody thinks it will eliminate it. Every tirade posted against barring kibitzers assumes that we who do view it as the ultimate cure. Disagree if you want, but don't assume our motives.

2) Running a free tourney is a fair bit of work to allow many people to have a bit of fun. The least we can do is let people run them how they please. Barring kibitzers is not illegal as "no psyches" or "no 1NT with stiffs" is. Quit hassling those who give their time for nothing so that you can get something free!

3) Allowing kibitzers gives people an excuse not to play. I have never understood the difference between watching a player play eight boards live and watching a player play eight boards he played an hour ago through myhands.

4) Allowing kibitzers is an invitation to the terminally-suspicious to raise hell whenever an opponent makes a good play. There are people who do this. I don't need the hassle.

5) Boycotting isn't effective. Like it or not, the vast majority of players don't care one way or the other. Of those who do, the majority would prefer no kibitzers online, just because it seems fairer. The ones who rant here are a minority--and I would guess a knowledgable enough minority to run their own tourneys and play in each other's.

[Brandal]

McBruce, on Oct 25 2005, 04:02 AM, said:

OK, here's what's wrong with this oft-repeated thread:

1) No TD who bars kibitzers thinks that it will eliminate cheating. We think it MAY cut down on cheating, but nobody thinks it will eliminate it. Every tirade posted against barring kibitzers assumes that we who do view it as the ultimate cure. Disagree if you want, but don't assume our motives.

2) Running a free tourney is a fair bit of work to allow many people to have a bit of fun. The least we can do is let people run them how they please. Barring kibitzers is not illegal as "no psyches" or "no 1NT with stiffs" is. Quit hassling those who give their time for nothing so that you can get something free!

3) Allowing kibitzers gives people an excuse not to play. I have never understood the difference between watching a player play eight boards live and watching a player play eight boards he played an hour ago through myhands.

4) Allowing kibitzers is an invitation to the terminally-suspicious to raise hell whenever an opponent makes a good play. There are people who do this. I don't need the hassle.

5) Boycotting isn't effective. Like it or not, the vast majority of players don't care one way or the other. Of those who do, the majority would prefer no kibitzers online, just because it seems fairer. The ones who rant here are a minority--and I would guess a knowledgable enough minority to run their own tourneys and play in each other's.

I'm sure all these are more or less valid points,
but I don't recall many supporting barring kibs
here...

But maybe "we" who don't like kibs disallowed
are a minority,or are you doing what "we" shouldn't.....
assuming?

[chicken]

the cheating problem is exaggerated i think, its more the rudeness and unpoliteness problem that bugs me and therefore kibs are very important because some (unfortunately only some) players show a somehow more descent attitude when they are kibbed. do they really????

[barmar]

Quote

3) Allowing kibitzers gives people an excuse not to play. I have never understood the difference between watching a player play eight boards live and watching a player play eight boards he played an hour ago through myhands.

I generally kib when I can't play, like waiting time at work (I also use this time to post here).

The difference between kibbing and myhands is that you can make comments to other kibs at the table. Also, if you're kibbing stars and world class players, they occasionally make interesting comments. Tempo is also noticeable. Perusing old hands is boring.

[Posleda]

Watching player or myhands ?

You may watch the railway station. You may read the railway guide or watch flow sheet. There are the same trains.

Do you understand the difference ?

[McBruce]

I don't understand the difference between watching a train stop at a train station and looking at a schedule to see when it will stop. Both seem boring to me compared to actually being on the train.

Anyway, I forgot the other argument against the notion that TDs like me who bar kibitzers should be made to conform:

6) If kibitzers rights activists get their way and somehow force TDs to let them in the door, the TDs who currently bar kibitzers will simply quit--for who knows what the masses will demand next? People who do things voluntarily don't expect to be dictated to.

Bottom line: if you think tourneys barring kibitzers are wrong, this is your forum: find six others who agree with you and form a group running one tourney each a week. And you know, I may even play in it! (I won't complain about the kibitzers.)

[sceptic]

if in any given hour, 5 tourneys run with no kibbers, and each has 20 tables, that equates to 400 people you cant kib, if 4000 are on line that means 10 % of people can't be kibbed.

why is it such a problem, that we keep going over old ground.

there are 3600 more to watch (well 3599 if you exclude watching yourself).

There are some great players here to watch and I think you will find they don't all play kib barred at the same time.

I persoanlly find being invisible is a worse crime, but at the end of the day it is their choice and that choice is there for all of us to take.

[barmar]

I don't know about the rest of you, but I'm not interested in kibitzing randoms in the MBC. So most of those 3600 are irrelevant.