[awm]

Honestly I started playing 2-way NMF because I could never figure out the answers to these. I'm curious what people think, playing "one-way" NMF.

(1) Does the new minor always guarantee five cards in the original major response?

(2) If opener has a maximum 1NT rebid, is he supposed to jump to 3M with 3-card support?

(3) How does responder make a slam try in opener's minor?

(4) What does a jump to the three-level show (other than in responder's original major or 3NT)?

(5) If opener bids responder's major after NMF, is that assumed agreed? Are new suits cues? Or are they suggesting game/slam in an alternate strain?

(6) If opener rebids 2M or 2NT, then is 3x (where x is not NT) by responder forcing?

[luke warm]

i agree adam, 2 way does simplify a lot (all) of these

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(1) Does the new minor always guarantee five cards in the original major response?

i don't see how it can, especially if any suit other than the new minor can be passed

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(2) If opener has a maximum 1NT rebid, is he supposed to jump to 3M with 3-card support?

if the original no trump rebid *guaranteed* <4 card support (which it probably should, except possibly for a 4333), this might be right

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(3) How does responder make a slam try in opener's minor?

good question.. maybe by playing a jump as rkc? takes a lot of room though

1d : 1h
1nt : 2c
2h(3?) : 4d

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(4) What does a jump to the three-level show (other than in responder's original major or 3NT)?

whew.. do you play walsh? do you mean something like this?

1d : 1h
1nt : 2c
3d

another tough question.. did 1nt positively guarantee a spade stop? if not, maybe this shows a solid 5cs and asks about spades?

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(5) If opener bids responder's major after NMF, is that assumed agreed? Are new suits cues? Or are they suggesting game/slam in an alternate strain?

i'd probably take them as cues.. responder is boss, so s/he sets the contract now

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(6) If opener rebids 2M or 2NT, then is 3x (where x is not NT) by responder forcing?

sheesh... i'd guess yes, since nmf should force to 2nt or 4m, but i don't know

[Cascade]

awm, on Mar 15 2006, 01:08 PM, said:

Honestly I started playing 2-way NMF because I could never figure out the answers to these. I'm curious what people think, playing "one-way" NMF.

I am sure that there is more than one answer to some of these questions depending on partnership agreement. In fact I play at least two different versions of simple "checkback". Yeah I just realized that I usually play 2♣ checkback rather than NMF but I always consider them as interchangable agreements. In the past I have also played 2-way checkback.

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(1) Does the new minor always guarantee five cards in the original major response?

No. In particular I go through NMF with four cards in the other major this could be 4-4 in the majors when I have responded 1♥ and also on any reasonably balanced hand that has slam interest.

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(2) If opener has a maximum 1NT rebid, is he supposed to jump to 3M with 3-card support?

You can play this way. If NMF is forcing to 2NT then this is not necessary. I have also played using 2♣ checkback that 2♦ shows a minimum and 2♥/♠ show a maximum.

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(3) How does responder make a slam try in opener's minor?

For me NMF followed by 3minor is forcing and slammish.

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(4) What does a jump to the three-level show (other than in responder's original major or 3NT)?

Various schemes are possible.

We play:

New suits as distributional slam tries 5/5 or better;

A jump to 3minor is to play if the suit has been previously bid by opener or responder (I am not sure that this is anything close to standard);

A jump to responder's major at the three-level is distributional and slammish.

Actually we are experimenting with an alternative structure at the moment where we use 2NT as a weak takeout to a minor and jumps to the three-level show a shortage (even in opener's suit).

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(5) If opener bids responder's major after NMF, is that assumed agreed?
Are new suits cues? Or are they suggesting game/slam in an alternate strain?

No responder might have a hand with 4-4 in the majors or slammish with 4-4 in any two suits.

New suits or correcting to opener's suit are natural and suggesting an alternative strain (and slammish for me).

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(6) If opener rebids 2M or 2NT, then is 3x (where x is not NT) by responder forcing?

Yes this seems the only practical approach.

[mikeh]

A great plug for 2 way, which not only avoids most of these but has a lot more upside potential (mostly arising from the availability of an artificial 2N)

1. always promise 5 cards in major? Not if 3 of opener's minor is non-forcing. You need to be able to bid a 4 card major and then make a strong support of opener's minor, and if a jump to 3m is nf, then you have to go through nmf to conserve space and the chance to play 3N

Also, after 1m 1♥, if 1N could contain 4♠, then you need a way to force while checking back on the possible ♠ fit when responder is 4=4.


2. Is opener to jump to 3M with 3 card support and max? Depends on agreement, but traditionally, yes. What if opener is 3=4 in majors and responder bid 1♠? Now a jump to 3♠ over nmf will lose the 4=4 ♥ fit, since responder, with a gf hand, will nmf with 5=4 majors.

3. How to make a slam try in opener's minor: see #1 above: few would play 3minor as forcing, so the default is to nmf then bid the minor. Note how a jump to 3M can interfere with this plan, so see #2 as well

4. Jump to 3x... I assume by responder rather than by opener: thus 1♦ 1♠ 1N 3♣: in traditional nmf, as I learned it, it showed 4♠ and usually 6♣ and a poor hand: it was to play. But jump into 3♥ would be 5-5 or better, and then the partnership had to agree if it was forcing or invitational. Isn't all this ambiguity fun?

5. If opener bids responder's major, is that suit agreed? Not if you have to go through nmf to set opener's suit as trump. Otherwise, yes.

6. In the style I used to play before I learned how to relax and not play nmf, the answer is yes.

I liked your comment that you could never figure out the answers. No-one could, to most. There are no answers to figure out, only agreements to make, some that work better on some hands than on others. It is a mess that survived and survives because it worked a heck of a lot better than the methods in use previously. Just imagine how bad they were!

BTW, a good post: you have brought into focus most (all?) of the real difficulties that nmf poses. One local advanced player told me recently that she could not understand why I had been so strongly in favour of 2 way: she commented that learning the method seemed like a lot of work for almost no gain compared to nmf. I wish I had her email to send her this thread.

[Kalvan14]

All your explanations are quite correct, Mikeh.
The only thing I disagree with is your dislike for NMF. Frankly, I do not see the problem (see also the other thread Going Slamming)

[Codo]

awm, on Mar 15 2006, 09:08 AM, said:

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(1) Does the new minor always guarantee five cards in the original major response?

As the others stated, obv. not.

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(2) If opener has a maximum 1NT rebid, is he supposed to jump to 3M with 3-card support?

There are different ways, but this is the simplest, yes.

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(3) How does responder make a slam try in opener's minor?

By bidding this minor as cheap as possible.

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(4) What does a jump to the three-level show (other than in responder's original major or 3NT)?

I think 5-5 inviting is quite popular

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(5) If opener bids responder's major after NMF, is that assumed agreed? Are new suits cues? Or are they suggesting game/slam in an alternate strain?

Normally yes, but not if responder returns to openers suit, this is slammish with that suit.

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(6) If opener rebids 2M or 2NT, then is 3x (where x is not NT) by responder forcing?

Yes, he can bid all invitational hands different.

I have played checkback, 2way nmf, texas relays and a lot of stuff. In my opinion, I needed much more brain to remember all the follow ups after these conventions then after nmf without much gain.

[luke warm]

i don't quite understand why 2 way would be seen as requiring more mental effort than nmf... i find it relaxing because i always know what responder is saying... after 2c, i bid 2d and s/he bids or passes.. if bid, it's an invite... simple.. after 2d gf, no worries either

[joshs]

awm, on Mar 14 2006, 07:08 PM, said:

Honestly I started playing 2-way NMF because I could never figure out the answers to these. I'm curious what people think, playing "one-way" NMF.

(1) Does the new minor always guarantee five cards in the original major response?

(2) If opener has a maximum 1NT rebid, is he supposed to jump to 3M with 3-card support?

(3) How does responder make a slam try in opener's minor?

(4) What does a jump to the three-level show (other than in responder's original major or 3NT)?

(5) If opener bids responder's major after NMF, is that assumed agreed? Are new suits cues? Or are they suggesting game/slam in an alternate strain?

(6) If opener rebids 2M or 2NT, then is 3x (where x is not NT) by responder forcing?

1. No
2. There is not universal agreement on this. In NMF as presented in Washington Standard, the Answer is No (because of question 3). In Root's book on modern bridge conventions the answer is yes. Personally, I think yes is a terrible way to play ....
3. NMF then bid the minor, if opener jumps this fouls up this sequence
4. In the other minor its either to play, or INV, depending on style, walsh agreements, etc. I think in Wash std its to play. In the major its 6+ INV, In hearts after bidding spades its 5-5 INV
5.Alternate strains
6. Them meaning of 3M when opener bids 2M is contraversial. If you don't jump with a max its an invite, if you do its a slam try. These are the things that accidents are made of. Note: if you bid up the line 1m-1M-1N-2om-2M-2N is completely idle, so that is available as the slam try in the major if so desired (OR just an ART GF).
Other bids other than 3M are game forcing after NMF.

[P_Marlowe]

Not sure this is standard, but I give you the answer,
based on the way I play NMF
1) No
2) Yes
3) bidding the minor after NMF, this complements 1)
4) inviation 2-suiter, 5-5
5) yes, unless 3)
6) yes

With kind regards
Marlowe

[1eyedjack]

I may be alone but I have for some time with reg partners been playing that 2C is puppet to 2D and 2D is used as relay. So far I don't feel inclined to change.

I guess that is neither checkback nor NMF, 2-way or otherwise.

[keylime]

For my 1001st post, I decided to put some time into it. :-)

I play one-way NMF (sigh).

Answering Adam's questions:

1. No. I don't promise five card major support because it might be only way to get into our side 4-4 major fit. Also, I'm experimenting with 1m-2M as a weak and invite with both majors right now, so that would make 1m-1S-1NT-2H as mildily inviting with us.

2. Jumps with us show three card support, a max, and five card minor and fills in the rest of opener's shape (i.e. 3S is 3-3-5-2 over 1D-1H-1NT-2C-3S) unless it's 1D-1M-1NT-2C-3C (that shows exactly 2-2-5-4, max) If opener jumps to three of responder's first major, that's showing a maximum flattish hand with three card support.

3. If responder wants to make a slam try in opener's minor, it would be based on equal lengths of major-minor, because we play inverted minors as game-forcing and not denying a four card major if holding five card support. With us, NMF then a bid of opener's minor is always slammish (we use Criss-Cross and other treatments) and it demands a cuebid from opener (3NT in this sequence shows a hand with a lack of controls).

4. Jump to three level by responder shows 2 hands:

a) Jump in responder's major -> single suited G/F
Jump into a side suit -> shows exactly any 5422 shape with (4) What does a jump to the three-level show (other than in responder's original major or 3NT)?

5. Opener with us, bids a side 4 card major BEFORE bidding 3 card support. Once opener shows immediate support, we use 2NT as a relay asking for more information (i.e. 5 card minor -> remember, they may be min with this holding; for we jump with max's). Any other bid other than 2NT is natural. The ONLY slam try available is 3 of the agreed major.

6. Yes, definitely forcing. We do NOT play 2NT to play over a NMF. We stretch to game if needed due to our disciplined opening style.

Hope this answers some questions. Holler if you have more.