[Free]

Scoring: IMP

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You're playing 2/1 GF with Maarten Schollaert (Dutch top international) as LHO. The bidding starts:
pass - 1♥ - 4♣ - 4♥
5♣ - ...

What now?

[P_Marlowe]

Hi,

Pass, and Pass is not forcing.

Nobody knows what the guy who bid
4H holds, ... except the guy himself.

For that matter, even 4C is unclear it
maybe a tactical bid, ... the risk is
greater if he would have bid 3C only,
but still ...

With kind regards
Marlowe

[DelfinoD]

P_Marlowe, on Apr 28 2006, 05:51 AM, said:

Hi,

Pass, and Pass is not forcing.

Nobody knows what the guy who bid
4H holds, ... except the guy himself.

Tha't not really sure if the pass is not forcing. I know many players who assume that if we are vul, and we first bid a game then all passes are forcing.

In this case I think pass is clear in both possibilites. If pass is forcing I'm showing nothing in clubs (partner has a less balanced hand, so he must have short clubs to bid 5♥). If pass is not forcing, that's nice too. I have nothing more to show. 6 hearts is nice but I have a terrible two ♣.

[DelfinoD]

So your partner bids 4♥ on 12pc when he's vul?

[mikeh]

Pass: non-forcing

Whether a pass is forcing or not depends on partnership agreements, but many partnerships, and all pickup partnerships, will have few clear rules. On general principles, this probably should NOT be a forcing situation, because N was under great pressure, and may have bid 4♥ with a huge range of hands... after all, if he has long ♥ and a shapely hand, with few hcp, he will have to bid 4♥ to avoid you passing the board out while cold for game.

On the other hand, he could have a full opening hand.

By passing, I am announcing an opening hand with no reason to expect to beat 5♣ on my power and no reason to expect to make 11 tricks without a lot of help: seems like a reasonable decription to me

Merely because 'we bid game' should not make this a forcing pass: we do not know what kind of hand partner bid game on....and the 'we bid game' force only applies (for me) when 'we bid game on the balance of power'.

[bid_em_up]

DelfinoD, on Apr 28 2006, 10:48 AM, said:

So your partner bids 4♥ on 12pc when he's vul?

Huh?

[jdonn]

Even if LHO had only overcalled 3♣ and partner had JUMPED to 4♥, pass is not forcing (it is if partner bid 4♣ instead). This is a pet peeve of mine. VULNERABILITY DOES NOT MAKE A PASS FORCING. There is no auction that is a forcing pass at some vulnerability but not others. This is a misconception, and some people agree to play it but they are making a big mistake. Sure you might be less likely to pass a hand out when vul if partner's bid might not show more, but that's different.

If partner doubles, which just shows some values for his 4♥ bid, then it isn't totally unreasonable to bid 5♥, but I would pass. Give him say Axxx xxxx Axxx x and you will almost surely make 650, where passing gets you in order of likelyhood either 500, 200, or 800, so bidding can certainly be right. But he could also have something more like Axx Qxxx KJxxx x where you are too likely to turn a plus into a minus by bidding. Take the cash.

[whereagles]

Maarten Schollaart, huh? Last time I played him he was still bidding 1,5 tricks too many Being so, I pass (non forcing).

[DelfinoD]

bid_em_up, on Apr 28 2006, 11:01 AM, said:

DelfinoD, on Apr 28 2006, 10:48 AM, said:

So your partner bids 4♥ on 12pc when he's vul?

Huh?

If his hand contains 0pc and I usually have 12 for my opening then this would be 4♥ on 12pc when vul. I'm not sure if it's a good buisness.

[Joe de Balliol]

Double since I think pass should be forcing if playing sayc or 2/1. Acol style I'd be more inclined to play pass as NF and bid it. [call it, whatever]

J

[Blofeld]

Joe de Balliol, on May 6 2006, 12:29 PM, said:

Double since I think pass should be forcing if playing sayc or 2/1. Acol style I'd be more inclined to play pass as NF and bid it. [call it, whatever]

The main difference between the two styles on this auction being that you tend to have a slightly better hand playing Acol, Joe (assuming a weak no trump)?

Unless very non-standard, I wouldn't expect your constructive style to have anything to do with whether pass is forcing here. I can't see quite why it should be forcing in any case: could you explain?

[bid_em_up]

DelfinoD, on Apr 28 2006, 11:54 AM, said:

bid_em_up, on Apr 28 2006, 11:01 AM, said:

DelfinoD, on Apr 28 2006, 10:48 AM, said:

So your partner bids 4♥ on 12pc when he's vul?

Huh?

If his hand contains 0pc and I usually have 12 for my opening then this would be 4♥ on 12pc when vul. I'm not sure if it's a good buisness.

Huh??

As best I can tell, the original auction was,

(p) 1H (4C) 4H (5C)

Of course partner can be bidding 4H on 12 hcp.

Still not sure what you are attempting to get at.

What is partner supposed to do holding:

AQx Kxxx Kxxx xx?

Pass? Double? Nonsense. He bids 4H.

So I still do not see what your point is, sorry.

[luke warm]

i *think* he's saying that if the 1♥ opener had 12 points and responder had zero and bid 4♥ as a preempt, the total would be 12

btw, i'd pass here and i don't think it can possibly be forcing... if partner does have a hand that's pretty hefty, he can still bid

[moysian]

Originally, I said "pass" - now I want to reconsider.

1. Even if partner plays me for a forcing pass, and "assumes" I have a singleton club, will it really matter? Honestly, can partner hold more than one club on this auction?

2. 5h is only off 2 if partner is bust and holds a stiff club. My only concern is that they bid (and make) 6c.

3. If partner has 2 Aces to go with his stiff club (or 1 Ace and a club void), 5h makes (and 5c may be unbeatable)

4. If partner has an even better hand, 6h may make; yet partner will likely settle for 5cx if you pass.

My "revised" vote is 5h.

[benlessard]

Pass 100% forcing

I knew most people wouldnt play forcing pass here but im sure theyre wrong and its not a close decision at all.

Quote

No way this is forcing, I showed an opener and partner showed a distributional hand that could contain 0 HCP.

This is where they get it wrong your partner 4♥ bid mean and can only mean 1 thing ... he think you have a fair shot of making 4H. red vs red hes surely not taking a sac over 4♣ nor setting a sac over 5♣ Anyway this is IMPs nobody is thinking about sac over 5 in a minor.

So if your partner think you have a fair shot at 4♥ then you must play forcing pass because he could have values only for the 3 level but took the push cause he felt that it could make but he could easily have 5 level value and took the conservative approach.



If they make 5♣ X (unlikely IMHO) then so what...its only 150 pts ? its so much more important to aim for the 650 instead of 200 or to avoid the -100 instead of collecting 200 or 500. Forcing pass is the most important tool for 5 level decision how can you live without it ??

Most people will tell you
in doubt there is not forcing pass....

what i suggest you is in doubt its forcing pass.

Anyway once you aknowledge that parter is expecting you to make 4h then ---the forcing pass is on--- become obvious.



Now is it pass or X


i think its fairly obvious for everybody that your opponent have 11+ trumps. You know you partner is probably void and your partner know you have a doubleton or a stiff. So how can you guide him in making the right decision ... At first it might make sense to x with 2 and pass with 1 clubs but since i have a full fledge opening bid and a 6th heart and the penalty inst going to be juicy ... ill pass and im expecting partner to bid 5h most of the time.


if partner has a weakish 8pts and a clubs void and decide to pass despite that its a probable FP auction (from his point of view) it wont bother me but i hope he understand my pass means its possible we make 5♥.

Ben