[Aberlour10]

Hannie, on Jun 22 2006, 07:28 AM, said:

Look at the last world cup. The Germans were awful, weren't they? And yet they made it to the finals (and played quite well in it too).

This time they won't have such a unbelievably lucky draw as in 2002:

World Cup 2002

1/8 vs Paraguay
1/4 vs USA
1/2 vs South Korea

World Cup 2006

1/8 vs Sweden
1/4 vs probably Argentina
1/2 vs probably Italy, France or......?


If the Argentinians will show their "normal" performance the chances for
Germany to get through are rather small.

Robert

[cherdano]

Hannie, on Jun 22 2006, 02:31 PM, said:

cherdano, on Jun 21 2006, 04:19 PM, said:

Can someone explain me why everyone is getting crazy about Argentina?? Yes, I only watched the games vs Ivory Coast and Netherlands

Seriously, is one good game enough to become the favorite in everybody's eyes?

Argentina seems very strong, don't forget that both Argentina and Holland were playing with many subs. And Argentina didn't need to win to become first in the group. Holland did, but didn't create any good chances to score.

I rate Argentina, Brazil, Spain and (yes) Germany as the favorites to win it.

Okok, I will certainly agree that Argentina has a very strong team. I just don't agree when people suddenly make them a huge favorite over, say, Brazil, after they might have said the opposite before the world cup.

In fact, in my opinion Brazil is underestimated. Yes, they weren't dominant at all against Australia, but their win wasn't lucky. They won because they are by far the most dangerous team once they get close to the penalty area. That's how they scored the 1-0, and that's what made the difference in the final 2002.

Arend

[the saint]

cherdano, on Jun 22 2006, 01:27 PM, said:

Hannie, on Jun 22 2006, 02:31 PM, said:

cherdano, on Jun 21 2006, 04:19 PM, said:

Can someone explain me why everyone is getting crazy about Argentina?? Yes, I only watched the games vs Ivory Coast and Netherlands

Seriously, is one good game enough to become the favorite in everybody's eyes?

Argentina seems very strong, don't forget that both Argentina and Holland were playing with many subs. And Argentina didn't need to win to become first in the group. Holland did, but didn't create any good chances to score.

I rate Argentina, Brazil, Spain and (yes) Germany as the favorites to win it.

Okok, I will certainly agree that Argentina has a very strong team. I just don't agree when people suddenly make them a huge favorite over, say, Brazil, after they might have said the opposite before the world cup.

In fact, in my opinion Brazil is underestimated. Yes, they weren't dominant at all against Australia, but their win wasn't lucky. They won because they are by far the most dangerous team once they get close to the penalty area. That's how they scored the 1-0, and that's what made the difference in the final 2002.

Arend

Brazil also had the Ref on their side. He was atrocious - which went along with pretty much all of the Brazilian team so far apart from Kaka.

Re: Germany. They did OK in 2002 precisely becuase they had terrible injury problems which forced them to build a team around the one good player they have - Ballack. The luck of the draw did the rest. However, judging by his reputation, if someone else tells me that Ballack is playng with his heart, my sides will probably split from all the laughter.

[han]

Sorry, I don't know Ballack's reputation. What I said is based only upon what I saw during the matches.

[mike777]

With 100,000 screaming German fans do not count them out.
The Dutch look good.
Brazil is still my fav but they have been sloppy.
What is with all of this 2=4=4=1 alignments with only 2 forwards, No wonder there is never any scoring.
Hurrah the USA scored, now if we can only get competent coaches and admins. to figure out a way to beat the 2=4=4=1 defense and get some scoring.

[the saint]

4-4-2? Bedrock of the game my son. However...

England are likely now to switch to a 4-3-3/4-5-1 depending on whether we are defending or attacking.
Portugal play 4-2-3-1 with two holding midfielders and a lone striker (Pauletta). Deco will play central of the 3 midfield and Cristiano Ronaldo/Figo on the flanks although they may switch during the course of the game/
The Dutch have always played 4-3-3/3-4-3 since the days of Cruyff - with a marking style centre-half and a libero-style one who can make a 4th in midfield if necessary. Van Nistelrooy/Kuyt will be the central frontman and Robben/Van Persie will be the wider strikers. They too will often switch flanks several times during the half.
The Italians started out 4-3-1-2 with Totti in the hole, but against the Czechs reverted to 4-3-2-1 with Gilardino the lone striker (they played this formation in Euro 2000 and almost won it.
The Czechs, being short of strikers through injury, have generally lined up 4-5-1, but with Rosicky and Nedved given free licence to roam with a holding midfielder tucked in behined them.
Brazil play 2-2-2-2 with the Full backs charginging up and down the wing all day. The front 4 being the magic square.
Spain have lined up 4-3-3 with Torres the Central striker. The midfield 3 for the 2nd round match is expected to be Alonso, Xavi and Fabregas.
Argentina are playing 4-4-2ish, but in a sort of a midfield diamond. Riquelme behind the front 2 and a holding midfielder in front of the back 4.
France have been playing 4-4-1-1 with Henry the lone striker and Zidane in the hole, although of the 4 midfielders, Makalele will sit and Viera will drive through the middle. Perm 2 of three from Malouda, Ribery and Wiltord as the wide men.
The Germans have been playing 4-4-2, although of the two central midfielders, Frings sits and Ballack is given free reign.

You will notice that none of the top teams are playing 4-4-2 with a completely flat midfield. Have you been watching the same world cup as me?

[mike777]

It sounds like even less scoring, geez only one forward with a few swingmen? Boring..but then the USA was really really bad, so much for the game catching on here.

Lets see kickball downfield and try and outrun 4 defenders...boring ...
Again do these usa coaches really know how to coach, our players play? Seems we can only try and send more over to the tough leagues oversees and hope some home grown strategists can come up with some offensive thinking to beat the Old World.

[jdonn]

mike777, on Jun 18 2006, 03:59 PM, said:

Yankees have been scorned and ridiculed in soccer for decades...get over it and score at least one goallll

Apparently that was not good enough to avoid your scorn and ridicule.

Oh, and the vast majority of teams use either 1 or 2 forwards at a time, not more than that.

It's pretty easy to criticize from behind your computer screen. It doesn't mean very much.

[mike777]

Yes, I was happy they scored a goal, I said I would be, that was clear.
Yes I said most teams only have one or two forwards, again that is what I wrote.

I am not the only one critical but yes I am. Only because I think soccer could really catch on and I am a fan, a novice one, even after decades of following the sport. Yes I think more scoring and winning a key game would help alot.

Many say this type of game is not set up to bring a more statistical analysis as in baseball, but I hope they are wrong and some bright young souls can bring some interesting insights into the game. Until then I am afraid we are doomed to the boring European style rather than the Brazil style.

I guess I remember watching on the teli games from the seventies(?) in Mexico City when the players were too tired and short of breath to defend but not to score .

[the saint]

mike777, on Jun 22 2006, 10:57 PM, said:

Yes, I was happy they scored a goal, I said I would be, that was clear.
Yes I said most teams only have one or two forwards, again that is what I wrote.

I am not the only one critical but yes I am. Only because I think soccer could really catch on and I am a fan, a novice one, even after decades of following the sport. Yes I think more scoring and winning a key game would help alot.

Many say this type of game is not set up to bring a more statistical analysis as in baseball, but I hope they are wrong and some bright young souls can bring some interesting insights into the game. Until then I am afraid we are doomed to the boring European style rather than the Brazil style.

I guess I remember watching on the teli games from the seventies(?) in Mexico City when the players were too tired and short of breath to defend but not to score .

Attacking midfielders coming from deep a la Gerrard, Nedved etc are usually more dangerous than extra forwards because it is harder for the defence to pick them up. Henry is more dangerous for Arsenal than France because he is allowed to wander out to the wings and drive in from there where the defence can't pick him up so easily. In the French method he is far more rigidly positioned. The number designations may indicate a form but in reality it is far more fluid than that. The best football team ever - the Dutch of 1974 (definitely better than the 70 Brazilians) - played in such a way that anyone could be anywhere at any time. Total Football. It caused havoc because it meant they were almost impossible to mark on an indivudual basis.

The basic formation is less important than the subtleties of how it is implemented.

This 'European Style' is nonsense. The English are completely different to the Italians who are definitely different to the Dutch and the Spanish and the Germans... Italian football to the uninitiated may be boring but in reality it is probably the most artful. The English game may lack subtlety at times, but it undoubtedly has the most energy. If anything, Brazilian football bores me the most...

The last thing I want to see is sport - especially football - purely for statistical basis. The soul must dominate over the computer.

[whereagles]

Crazy day yesterday..

Inzaghi scored
Ronaldo scored.. twice!
Referee didn't see TWO handballs by the SAME croatian player
Another croatian player was given THREE yellow cards!

ze end is nigh!

[han]

Whereagles, better enjoy the Sunday game!

Spoiler

Because it will be Portugal's last! ♥

[whereagles]

I'm pretty comfortable with the fact that Portugal won something like 9 of the last 10 games against Holand thankyouverymuch

[jikl]

I need to say it just once, even if it subject me to ridicule...

GO AUSTRALIA!!!

Bring on Italy! We have nothing to lose.

Sean

[nickf]

australia have nothing to lose but I rate them a fair chance as well. Italian teams are notorious for dropping their bundle and losing when a goal or more down early on. You only need to watch the Italian first division matches to see this.

plus australia have a terrific record of coming from behind in this tournament.

still, I bet with my head not my heart and if I put any money on this game it'll be for italy.

nickf
sydney

[the saint]

The Aussies will fight as always (its in their convict blood!!! ), but I think the Italians just know too much.

I'm excited by the England line-up. Hopefully now, injury has forced Sven's hand into properly unleashing Lampard and Gerrard. If we are to win this world cup, then Stevie G has to start playing like he does for Liverpool. If he does, everyone is in so much trouble!! Now all Sven has to do is drop Becks for Lennon and give Terry the armband!

I'm also happy Carragher has been replaced at full-back as he is too ponderous. Hargreaves should provide more energy. I might prefer him to replace Rio at Centre-Half rather than Big Sol just purely because I'm not convinced Sol's confidence is back yet.

[han]

whereagles, on Jun 23 2006, 08:24 AM, said:

I'm pretty comfortable with the fact that Portugal won something like 9 of the last 10 games against Holand thankyouverymuch

In that case you have nothing to fear, your record will still be decent after the Sunday-deception.

[Sigi_BC84]

Walddk, on Jun 21 2006, 09:19 PM, said:

Codo, on Jun 21 2006, 04:17 PM, said:

It surely is possible to loose against the Swedes, but I think we will make it and watch a great quarter final against Argentina.

You are a Germany supporter, I am not; nothing strange about that since you are German. I honestly think that Sweden has a better team than Germany, not least demonstrated against England last night.

However, no matter who wins, that team is unlikely to get past Argentina one round later.

Roland, maybe you are more than just slightly frustrated that Denmark didn't even qualify, and now you are making emotional and -- to put it diplomatically -- off-beat comments about the German performance. I think it makes you look pretty lame at this point.

Germany's performance so far has been splendid and they are getting better and better. They dominated the Swedes today (who probably sh*t their pants before and during the match for prolonged periods of time) and we will see an exciting match against Argentina in a few days. With both teams having chances of winning.

Cheer up, probably Denmark will be playing the European Championships in two years time.

--Sigi

[Walddk]

I am not frustrated at all that Denmark didn't qualify. Unlike many others, I am capable of acknowledging the shortcomings of one's own country. We simply didn't deserve to qualify. That was never an issue for Germany because they, as the host nation, had an automatic berth.

Nothing wrong with that since it applies to the host nations in all sports.

I would like to compliment the Germans on a strong performance against Sweden. If it hadn't been for Isaksson in the Swedish goal, the score could easily have been 5-0 or 6-0. The Swedes were very disappointing, and the match was over before Lucic was red-carded. So that's no excuse.

In 2002 Germany were extremely lucky to make it all the way to the final (I think that even German supporters will agree). This time they are playing much better football and have, deservedly, made it to the quarters.

With this said, I predict that we have now reached the stage where the party will stop. All good things must come to an end. The Argentinians were not at their best against Mexico, far from it, and they need to be in order to eliminate Germany. I am sure that the South Americans can and will step up a gear.

Roland

[Sigi_BC84]

Walddk, on Jun 25 2006, 06:49 AM, said:

In 2002 Germany were extremely lucky to make it all the way to the final (I think that even German supporters will agree).

Every German fan still right in his mind agrees with that. In 2002 it was mainly luck and the extraordinary performance of goal keeper Oliver Kahn what brought us into the finals.

This time we were lucky again to get an easy group which allowed the team to find their rhythm and start into the tournament with a row of successes. However, many things have changed since 2002 (or the disastrous European Championships in 2004). A few very young players are in key positions, Klose has developed a lot and the coach has changed and brought in a new philosophy and new methods.

Nobody is comparing the team to the one of 2002 and nobody is mentioning the 2002 success to rectify hopes of taking the title this year. We went through a depression after the ECs and a few disappointing games after the Confed Cup -- many people didn't really believe into the German team until they showed what they can achieve.

Quote

This time they are playing much better football and have, deservedly, made it to the quarters.
With this said, I predict that we have now reached the stage where the party will stop. All good things must come to an end. The Argentinians were not at their best against Mexico, far from it, and they need to be in order to eliminate Germany. I am sure that the South Americans can and will step up a gear.

You might easily be right here. Many people have good hopes of beating Argentina, but I think everybody is aware that it is a very high hurdle to take. The winner of this match will become top contender for the title.

If the South Americans can step up a gear, so can the Germans! This team is not getting worse, but steadily improving so far. Team spirit and morale is excellent.

I predict an even and exciting match Germany vs. Argentina and my feeling is that chances are even for both teams. FWIW, one of the major bookies operating in Germany agrees: their odds at the moment are 2.60/3.20/2.60...

--Sigi