[Gerardo]

the saint, on Jun 27 2006, 02:04 PM, said:

Gerardo, on Jun 27 2006, 09:49 AM, said:

Another example: Italy 1990

Argentina played all group matches in Napoli

No. Their first was definitely in the San Siro where they lost 1-0 to Cameroon.

Stand corrected. That was the WC opening match, as last champion (which, BTW, I think it is much better choice to pen than host, like it is since this WC. And if last champ doesn't qualify (which would be very surprising to me) you can use runner-up, 3rd, 4th, etc)), and that one is usually played in one of the main stadiums.

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I personally don't want the Argentinians to win, because they still resort to the dark arts[ IMO. They have played the best football of the tournament so far, but that isn't enough for me.

What dark arts?
Hand of God? Conceded. 20 years ago
Simeone playing up the referee to get Beckham sent off? Also conceded. 8 year ago

Please don't forget Owen's dives, thanks :-)

OTOH, our current coach, Pekerman, is an outstanding group manager. Since he started with the U20 (and U17), 11 or 12 years ago, his teams serveral times won the Fair Play thophy, for what that's worth.

This may be a rare case considering our idiosincracy, but that's they way it is now.

[Codo]

Gerardo, on Jun 28 2006, 02:10 PM, said:

What dark arts?

I think, that he meant something like exsessive time play while leading, playing foul behind the back of the ref., diving for penalties, ugly fouls, these kind of things.

At least this is what I disliked in the game when I watched Argentina in former times. But in this WC you can really see Pekermans style. They are still using any legal possibility to win the game with so few power as possible, but I saw not one brutal foul.

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OTOH, our current coach, Pekerman, is an outstanding group manager. Since he started with the U20 (and U17), 11 or 12 years ago, his teams serveral times won the Fair Play thophy, for what that's worth.

And because they know each other so well, they know their running ways, they have good standards and some very expressive players. They are surely one of the best three teams in this tournement.

German supporter comment: Bad luck, that such a good team as Argentina has to leave this tournement too early, because they are so unlucky to face Germany in the quart final and not in the final..

[Gerardo]

Not really a good match, few clear goal situations.
Think we lost it after the 1-0, before that, and after the 1-1 we managed the ball (we didn't have clear situations either).
Good bench management by Klinsmann.

Good luck ahead.

For TheSaint: We protested a lot. And I don't know what happened at the end :-(

[cherdano]

Gerardo, on Jun 30 2006, 08:22 PM, said:

Not really a good match, few clear goal situations.
Think we lost it after the 1-0, before that, and after the 1-1 we managed the ball (we didn't have clear situations either).
Good bench management by Klinsmann.

Good luck ahead.

For TheSaint: We protested a lot. And I don't know what happened at the end :-(

I agree Argentina was clearly the better team until the 1-0 (even though Germany was the only one to have a real goal opportunity), but I was surprised they went so passive after that (and that includes the choice of substitutions as you say; Klinsmann was very cool in just exchanging players, not changing the system at all).

Very even game, the 1-1 was absolutely fair after 120 min. Lehmann was impressive in the penalties (he touched 3 out of 4 shots), that made the difference. Very happy here, but sorry for Argentina.

[Codo]

I think Germany made more errors in this game then in all four games before. And that was not just because of the great defence of Argentina, a lot had been without any opponent close to the player.

It was a thrill but no good game. Both tried and had been successful to hold the opps away from the goal.
Anyway simply a lucky ending for the host and pure bad luck for Argentina.
The 1-1 was absolute deserved, no team had been good enough to win after 90 min or after 120 min.

[mike777]

Are true Football fans happy with these overtime kicks rather than just keep on playing with sudden death?

[hotShot]

They are not happy with this, but it is more sport that throwing a coin.
They tried the suddden death a while, but nobody really liked that too.

[Sigi_BC84]

Very close match, Argentina was very strong. I'm sorry that they have to leave now (I wouldn't have cared if it had been any of the other teams).

I think the protests were about Lehmann moving too much right before the penalty kicks. I didn't notice during the match. He did a great job, anyway, and finally that made the difference. Those penalty kick decisions aren't very prestigious, I would have preferred an earlier decision as well.

The party in Germany continues, Roland. What's next?

--Sigi

[Sigi_BC84]

I just checked the news about the brawl after the match. It says that apparently some Argentinian players continued to taunt the Germans during the penalty shootout. Borowski at some point made a gesture towards them to be quiet.

After the match Cufre kicked Mertesacker, supposedly because he had mistaken him for Borowski. Cufre drew a Red Card for that.

German team manager Bierhoff, when trying to quell the situation, got attacked as well (apparently he took some visible bruises from it).

Emotions, or maybe a part of the dark arts :-).

--Sigi

[Aberlour10]

Gerardo, on Jun 30 2006, 01:22 PM, said:

Not really a good match, few clear goal situations.
Think we lost it after the 1-0, before that, and after the 1-1 we managed the ball (we didn't have clear situations either).
Good bench management by Klinsmann.

I was really astonished that the Argentinian coach substituted out his
"key player" Riquelme so early.

Robert

[the saint]

Gerardo, on Jun 30 2006, 06:22 PM, said:

Not really a good match, few clear goal situations.
Think we lost it after the 1-0, before that, and after the 1-1 we managed the ball (we didn't have clear situations either).
Good bench management by Klinsmann.

Good luck ahead.

For TheSaint: We protested a lot. And I don't know what happened at the end :-(

I can't say I'm upset at Argentina going out - after all, it makes life easier for England. Poor decisions by Pekerman cost Argentina certainly, not least for me replacing Crespo with Cruz and not Messi. Mertesacker and Metzelder are classic donkey centre-halfs and so Cruz is tailor-made for them to defend against. The quick feet and ball skills of Messi would have been more decisive.

Italy look far more threatening than Germany to me, and I'm still quite certain we will beat the Portuguese.

And I still haven't seen a really good match with two teams playing top-notch flat-out footy. Unless we get one soon, this World Cup will finish a disappointment. We need a signature match desperately.


For Gerardo:
England v Argentina will always have spice, not least because of the history between the two nations on and off the pitch, but because of the fact that the two cultures are so opposite in many ways. I read somewhere (and my apologies if I am wrong), that there is a part of the street-culture that glorifies the deception and the steal. This of course is a total anathema to the traditional English approach to 'take it like a man'.

Down the years, neither side has covered itself in glory from 1966 (when we were probably as bad), to Owen's 'dives' (seen over here as giving them a dose of their own medicine and seeing how they like it for once) through to the present day, and to be honest I think its a good thing - after all, its what gives these encounters that little bit of zing. I, for example, think that the only decent match in 2002 was England-Argentina purely because it was the only match in the entire tournament that had that pure unbridled passion.

And anyway, Uruguay are still the dirtiest side in world football by a mile....

[hotShot]

Gerardo, on Jun 30 2006, 08:22 PM, said:

Not really a good match, few clear goal situations.
Think we lost it after the 1-0, before that, and after the 1-1 we managed the ball (we didn't have clear situations either).
Good bench management by Klinsmann.

I agree that it was not that much of a show, but it was very good match.

Modern football is about team tactics, and this was a perfect display of them.
Both teams demostrated almost perfect zone defence, the forwards acted as the first line of defence, the player with the ball is immediatelly attacked by 2 players.
This is why the average distance a player moves in game has gone up from 4km to 10km during the last 50 years. Under pressure a team can't develope it's play and forced mistakes will occure. Top teams create goals situations from these individual mistakes. The fewer mistakes happen, the less goal scenes will happen. The only other way to goal situations are "standard situations" like corners or free kicks.

[Walddk]

Not for the first time did Rooney lose his head. Not sure why he thinks it's permissible to stamp in an opponent's crotch on a football pitch. Exit Rooney, exit Eriksson, exit England.

And now we are waiting for Alan to tell us why England didn't go all the way this time either. Some would claim that it's because the opponents score more goals. Maybe the saint has a better explanation. No players from Southampton on the team?

Roland

[Codo]

Walddk, on Jul 2 2006, 03:00 AM, said:

Not for the first time did Rooney lose his head. Not sure why he thinks it's permissible to stamp in an opponent's crotch on a football pitch. Exit Rooney, exit Eriksson, exit England.

Roland

Maybe he thought that it was better to kick two balls instead of one?

[the saint]

Walddk, on Jul 1 2006, 06:00 PM, said:

Not for the first time did Rooney lose his head. Not sure why he thinks it's permissible to stamp in an opponent's crotch on a football pitch. Exit Rooney, exit Eriksson, exit England.

Roland

I'm not defending Rooney, but I'm not 100% convinced it was deliberate. If you look at his face, there is no sign of malice on it - he is looking for the ball and trying to plant his foot to run after it. Compared to how players have reacted after a football in the nuts (see Cannavaro last night), Carvalho stayed down for less time than that. A few deliberate studs to the 'nads and he would have been down for longer - therefore Rooney did not apply as much pressure as he would in a deliberate stamp therefore the possibility of it being accidental must be considered - or am I the only person on here who actually watches and analyses. The referee only reacted after Cristiano Ronaldo charged up and started harrassing him. It was notable also how Ronaldo turned away and winked at someone afterwards. Ronaldo also butted Rooney (albeit not forcefully) before the start of the match.

We were crap first half and Lennon made a difference after he came on. The ten men who fought to the end were magnificent - Hargreaves, I take it all back. He wanted it. The Portuguese were a complete disgrace, diving and cheating all over the place - notably Ronaldo, Figo and latterly Maniche's disgraceful attempt to get Gary Neville sent off when he went down clutching his face after no contact whatsoever. I'm proud that England don't have to win that way. It may be the World Cup, but its not worth sacrificing your integrity for it. Or maybe that is why we won't win it.

On a lighter note. Cristiano Ronaldo is going to get the crap kicked out of him by every full-back in the country next year because he will be a marked man by every single player, newspapar journalist and supporter - including his own! That is if Rooney leaves anything behind after Man United's first training session!! For his sake, Ronaldo had better hope that the right Real Madrid presidency candidate wins so he can fly off to Spain, because he won't have many friends left in England. Thats not a threat, its just a reality. His playing career in England may simply be untenable now.

Rooney will suffer an incredible pilloring by the press and fans for getting into a position where he could be sent off (a la Beckham). He will be back. Beckham may never start for England again. Lennon offered so much more.

Now, I want the Italians to win it.

[Walddk]

It definitely looks accidental

http://news.bbc.co.uk/sport2/hi/football/w...006/5122676.stm

Picture 11.

You need to find a better excuse, Alan. Regarding your thoughts about Ronaldo, I agree that it was a disgrace that he didn't miss his penalty. After all, he earns his money in England, so how dares he send England home?

If players, spectators and press in England are going to harass him after this, it says a lot more about them than about him. On the other hand, I wouldn't be surprised if it happened, and I won't be one bit in shock if some stupid and drunk English hooligans demolish half of Gelsenkirchen after the defeat.

Roland

[the saint]

Walddk, on Jul 1 2006, 06:47 PM, said:

It definitely looks accidental

http://news.bbc.co.uk/sport2/hi/football/w...006/5122676.stm

Picture 11.

You need to find a better excuse, Alan. Regarding your thoughts about Ronaldo, I agree that it was a disgrace that he didn't miss his penalty. After all, he earns his money in England, so how dares he send England home?

If players, spectators and press in England are going to harass him after this, it says a lot more about them than about him. On the other hand, I wouldn't be surprised if it happened, and I won't be one bit in shock if some stupid and drunk English hooligans demolish half of Gelsenkirchen after the defeat.

Roland

Alas yes. I'm not trying to justify any future actions, just predicting a likely outcome. Still, if you decide to use cheat and deception in any path in life, someone may get affronted by it, react accordingly and then you only have yourself to blame.

Penalties are a cop-out way to lose. A bit like the toss of the coin, although it now seems ingrained on our national psyche. Down to 10 men, lose on penalties, go home heroes. It is an easy way out.

RE: Rooney. I'm not saying it wasn't deliberate. It may be one of those things that appears different from every angle and different in motion and in stills. Certainly, I wonder what the Ref's action would have been without the Protuguese reaction.

[paulg]

Although the sending off did not help, the real problem is that England failed to show up for any of their games in the tournament except for 20 minutes against Paraguay.

There is sufficient talent for England to be competitive, but when your top players do not perform then there is little you can do.

Eriksson is principally to blame for continued poor performances through his mismanagement and lack of any tactical genes, but the midfield has been spectacularly bad and in order I'd fire Beckham, Lampard, Joe Cole and Gerrard. The last two have been a real disappointment as they were playing well. Beckham and Lampard have looked like ghosts for the last three months in their respective leagues.

At least there were some positives - Lennon, Hargreaves getting some respect (and he plays a lot better from the start of a match than as a sub), Ashley Cole playing again.

Time to start the tennis thread!

Paul

[MickyB]

Agree with Alan. Part of me was wondering if Sven told Beckham to go out and pretend to get injured so he could be subbed without loss of pride Don't know if Lennon would have looked as good if he was on from the start, but at least I'd have liked to get him on 10 minutes before half-time.

Crouch never looked comfortable as a lone striker, but something has to give when you are down to ten men. Shame they couldn't have shown that kind of commitment before Rooney's sending off. I don't know if the stamping was deliberate, the photo certainly makes it look far worse than it was.

Oh well, all over for another few years...but wasn't Murray fantastic?

[whereagles]

Walddk, on Jul 1 2006, 06:47 PM, said:

Regarding your thoughts about Ronaldo, I agree that it was a disgrace that he didn't miss his penalty. After all, he earns his money in England, so how dares he send England home?

huh..? did you eat something spolied?

HE PWND JOO!