[jillybean]

Scoring: IMP

P (P) 1NT

---

partnership agreement is 1nt 15-17

Opps cried foul after seeing the 1nt opening hand. Is this a deviation, a psyche, a tactical bid or ?

tyia
jb

[inquiry]

it is a psyche and is legal, not a very good psyche, btw, but you paid your money, you take your chances.

It could become illegal if they do this frequently at this vulnerabilty without aleriting it, but assuming this is a spur of the moment, one time event, it is perfectly fine.

[jtfanclub]

inquiry, on Aug 23 2006, 02:54 PM, said:

it is a psyche and is legal, not a very good psyche, btw, but you paid your money, you take your chances.

It could become illegal if they do this frequently at this vulnerabilty without aleriting it, but assuming this is a spur of the moment, one time event, it is perfectly fine.

I dunno, I'm looking at my convention card, and I have 'very light third hand openings' checked, and it's in black, so it isn't alerted.

How ridiculously light can it be before you have to alert it? Not that I'd ever do it.

[jillybean]

hmm, Im not completely sure on this.. "A psyche is a deliberate and gross misrepresentation of either your high card strength or the length of one of your suits" Is 10 as opposed to 15 a "gross misrepresentation"?

Also, in regards to Psyches I have been reading (EBU) that it is illegal to psyche a near game-forcing conventional opening so this could include 1nt in some partnerships?

ty
jb

[cherdano]

jillybean2, on Aug 24 2006, 02:11 AM, said:

hmm, Im not completely sure on this.. "A psyche is a deliberate and gross misrepresentation of either your high card strength or the length of one of your suits" Is 10 as opposed to 15 a "gross misrepresentation"?

I think so.

[pigpenz]

very legal
as long as partner doesnt catch it say by passing will 11hcp
Generally I myself would like to have a long minor simillar to a pre empt as a place to run should the doulbes start to fly

[jillybean]

cherdano, on Aug 23 2006, 05:37 PM, said:

jillybean2, on Aug 24 2006, 02:11 AM, said:

hmm, Im not completely sure on this.. "A psyche is a deliberate and gross misrepresentation of either your high card strength or the length of one of your suits"  Is 10 as opposed to 15 a "gross misrepresentation"?

I think so.

If 14 (13?) is a deviation I would think 9-12 would be very light and <9 a gross misrepresentation. There is surely (shirley!) a gap between deviation and gross misrepresentation? I hate to differ from the experts here but is it really so clear cut?

[hrothgar]

jillybean2, on Aug 24 2006, 04:16 AM, said:

If 14 (13?) is a deviation I would think 9-12 would be very light and <9 a gross misrepresentation. There is surely (shirley!) a gap between deviation and gross misrepresentation? I hate to differ from the experts here but is it really so clear cut?

One little, two little, three little sigma
four little, five little, six little sigma...

[inquiry]

jillybean2, on Aug 23 2006, 08:16 PM, said:

cherdano, on Aug 23 2006, 05:37 PM, said:

jillybean2, on Aug 24 2006, 02:11 AM, said:

hmm, Im not completely sure on this.. "A psyche is a deliberate and gross misrepresentation of either your high card strength or the length of one of your suits"  Is 10 as opposed to 15 a "gross misrepresentation"?

I think so.

If 14 (13?) is a deviation I would think 9-12 would be very light and <9 a gross misrepresentation. There is surely (shirley!) a gap between deviation and gross misrepresentation? I hate to differ from the experts here but is it really so clear cut?

This is a psyche. It is easy to tell as a psyche, because it is nowhere near to a 1NT opening bid by the announced system. Don't let "gross" fool you. It means that opening with 14 or even the really T' rich 13 with a nice suit might escape the psyche label, 10 will not cut it. That is a Gross misrepresentation of the values.

Quote

Also, in regards to Psyches I have been reading (EBU) that it is illegal to psyche a near game-forcing conventional opening so this could include 1nt in some partnerships?

1NT is not a conventional opening. 1NT is not near game forcing, heck, it is NOT EVEN FORCING. There is no way EBU rules block psyching a 1NT opening bid.

[Echognome]

jillybean2, on Aug 24 2006, 12:11 AM, said:

Also, in regards to Psyches I have been reading (EBU) that it is illegal to psyche a near game-forcing conventional opening so this could include 1nt in some partnerships?

ty
jb

The EBU dropped this as of the beginning of August. It is no longer illegal to psyche a game forcing or near game forcing conventional opening bid.

[kenrexford]

Many of these posts get me thinking...

15-17 range, but 10 is "very light" and not a "gross" distortion.

Amsterdam is in the EBU.

Marijuana can be smoked in Amsterdam.

[jillybean]

kenrexford, on Aug 23 2006, 07:46 PM, said:

Many of these posts get me thinking...

15-17 range, but 10 is "very light" and not a "gross" distortion.

Amsterdam is in the EBU.

Marijuana can be smoked in Amsterdam.

When I look at a psyche opening 1♠ on xx,KJx,Qxxx,xxxx opening 1nt on this hand didn’t seem to be in the same range at all - hence the question.
Where does "very light" come ?
jb


I tried it once or twice but I doubt I can blame Marijuana after this many years

[kenrexford]

The concept of a "very light" opening, in common parlance, refers to suit openings, not balanced openings. Suit opening have lead-directional purpose in third seat, not so much present with a NT opening. Suit openings typically have expected wide ranges, as opposed to very tight expectations on NT openings. Suit openings usually have some point-count checkback, not present with NT openings. Suit openings usually lack much in the way of HCP requirements for opening, as opposed to NT.

If the 1NT opening were very old school, just balanced with any HCP range, then go for it. It is a reality, however, that the meain feature to a 1NT opening is the HCP range, especially when the pattern expectation could be as radically different as 5332, 2236, 2452, or even some stiff-containing pattern. It is the point count that defines the call more than anything.

So...

Marijuana is out as an explanaion. But, old school...

ACID???

[blackshoe]

The partnership agreement is that a 1NT opening bid shows a balanced hand with 15-17 HCP.

The hand in question is a balanced 10 HCP. This is certainly a deviation. I would hesitate to call it a psyche.

"Opponents cried foul." Opponents are almost certainly mistaken. Does this pair have an agreement, explicit or implicit, to open 1NT this light? (Checking the "light openings in 3rd seat" box on the CC doesn't count - that applies to suit openings, not NT openings). Did responder cater for it? No? Then there's no problem.

Most likely, for reasons known only to himself, this player decided to violate the system. Tough. As Edgar Kaplan once said "a partnership agreement is an agreement with partner, not an undertaking to opponents."

[P_Marlowe]

It is a psych, it is allowed, as long
as partner invites with 8, bids game
with 10.

If partner holds 8 and decides to pass,
the most likely TD ruling would be, that
you have fielded the psych.
You have the right to downgrade, but
if you downgrade opposite a psych, ...
dont blame the TD for not believing you.

With kind regards
Marlowe

[FrancesHinden]

It is (probably) a psyche, and as such it is legal.
It only becomes illegal if it is not a psyche; that is if the pair have a concealed partnership understanding that 1NT might be a 10-count in third seat.

p.s. this is way we play penalty doubles of a 3rd seat strong 1NT opening. It's one of the most common psyches around.

[jillybean]

Ok thanks for all the replies, very helpful.
The laws specifically prohibit psyche of 2♣ or a multi type opening (I think?) (or any other conventional bid which by partnership agreement is game or near game forcing). I see above that the EBU have dropped this restriction and it is now legal to psyche a gf opening, are the ACBL or WBF likely to make the same changes?

Is there an easy way to keep up to date with changes being made to regulations by the various organizations?

ty
jb

[FrancesHinden]

Just because the EBU have changed it, there's no reason to suspect or expect that anyone else will I'm afraid. I wouldn't even try to keep up-to-date with regulations in different countries and their changes. Decide whose regs you use for your tournaments and follow them, or write your own.

I'm sure you are aware that a strong NT is neither "strong" in this sense nor convetional so this is a bit of a red herring as far as this hand is concerned.