[jillybean]

Scoring: MP

(P) 2♠ (P) ?

---

your bid please

[inquiry]

I would pass as south. The problem, as I see it, is that north;s hand is not suited for a weak two.

What you ask? A good suit six card suit, 9 hcp, what possibly could be wrong? The problem is with a void it is difficult to judge on the fly the merit of the hand. This is so true that many, many authorities suggest never open a weak two with a void. (See eddie kantars description of weak two for example at http://www.kantarbri...com/weak_2s.htm where he says "The distribution of the weak two bidder’s hand rates to be 6-3-2-2, 6-3-3-1 or 6-4-2-1. Notice: no five card side suits, no voids (those rules were for 1st and 2nd seat weak two.. he thinks five card suits ok in third).

If you are a zar point counter, north has 9 hcp, 2 control points, and 16 distributional points, for 27, two more than needed to open 1♠. At my table, the bidding would have started 1♠ and 4♠ would have been reached.

[Winstonm]

Pass at MPs but I would bid 2N (LTC ask) at imps - but that is only because my partner at imps can hold a pretty decent hand at this vul.

[kenrexford]

This problem is a good argument deal for not using indiscriminate weak two's, especially red on white.

What I mean is that, if a red-v-white weak two is appropriately sound (appropriate for vulnerability), then South should expect a hand with about 6-7 tricks, or 6-7 losers. South holds a clear cover card in spades (plus three-card support, which gives a comfort about forcing the three-level), a relatively assured cover in clubs, and a reasonable expectation that either the heart Queen or the club King will produce a third cover. There is even a chance that there are four covers.

Thus, if 2♠ is sound at these colors, South has invitational values, and protection from the Law (still relevant?) to invite.

So, what if South bids, say, 2NT? North holds a six-loser hand if the Qxxx in clubs fits well. If not, seven. Middlish. However, because North almost has a 1♠ opening, he probably should show positive, however that is done in your approach.

Sure, if North had held a void in clubs instead, and perhaps Kxx in hearts instead, then 4♠ might be bid and defeated. This happens. But, unless you have a technique for always spotting duplication of values quickly, you will occasionally end up in poor contracts with everyone else.

The point is, though, that South has cause to move if North will not make a 2♠ opening on junk when red-on-white. (And, accordingly, a 1♠ opening being more sound if red-on-white.) This is my personal view, I suppose. If the vulnerability were different, I also would open 1♠, because I'd want more freedom to open lighter 2♠ calls at more favorable vulnerability.

[Echognome]

It's clear to bid 4♠ as I see both hands! (Those of you bidding without mirrors are making your life much tougher.)

Ok. Ok. I pass at the table.

[jillybean]

Echognome, on Dec 23 2006, 10:11 AM, said:

It's clear to bid 4♠ as I see both hands!  (Those of you bidding without mirrors are making your life much tougher.)

Ok.  Ok.  I pass at the table.

yeah yeah sorry I wanted feedback on the opener as well, I will post these one hand at a time in future. I considered 1♠ at the table but 2nd pos and V..I thought I would give my husband a heart attack.

The link you posted is great thanks Ben

[cherdano]

jillybean2, on Dec 23 2006, 07:24 PM, said:

Echognome, on Dec 23 2006, 10:11 AM, said:

It's clear to bid 4♠ as I see both hands!  (Those of you bidding without mirrors are making your life much tougher.)

Ok.  Ok.  I pass at the table.

yeah yeah sorry I wanted feedback on the opener as well, I will post these one hand at a time in future. I considered 1♠ at the table but 2nd pos and V..I thought I would give my husband a heart attack.

Seriously, if your partner doesn't expect you to open such hands at the one-level, you should not.

(I would not open it 1♠ with any partner except Ben.)

[jillybean]

backspace..

[neilkaz]

jb.. a couple of comments if I may.

1) I really don't think vul is supposed to affect your decisions to open at the 1 level in first or 2nd seat (for me it has almost no effect at the 1 level in 3rd or 4th)

2) You just got this really nice Preempts from A-Z book !! They recommend not having a void for a weak 2 due to even worse things than what happened this hand.

That being said, lots of players open 2♠ with your hand anyhow and then if PD knows that you can be this good for a vul 2nd seat opener he may chance 2NT and if Ogust, perhaps he can take a shot after 3♠ showing a good suit and a good hand (err hoping an outside Quack my help) or if you play feature and just rebid your best suit with a max, perhaps he can hope that 4♠ makes.

However, from PD's seat making 4♠ needs quite a bit of luck and even with the hands as they are, you need a 3-2 split in ♣. I think I'd pass 2♠ as well.

Opening 1♠ like Ben can certainly work out, but if you hear a 2♥ GF response life may not be so good, and even after a 2♦ response there can be issues. However, Ben is willing to take those chances in exchange for the good times when things work out and he can chalk up a vul game that might otherwise be missed.

[the hog]

Yes I would open 2S and yes I would pass the South hand. You can't bid them all. Swap the void to the C suit and you won't make. Incidentally note that 4S STILL depends on C breaking, despite the perfect fit.

[mike777]

jillybean2, on Dec 23 2006, 12:01 AM, said:

Scoring: MP

(P) 2♠ (P) ?

---

your bid please

I would only open 2s if you think you have 6 playing tricks.
1) assuming the issue of what a playing trick is open to wide debate even at the top levels?
2) How do you count 6 playing tricks?

[P_Marlowe]

Hi,

seeng both hands 4S.

Having seen only my hand, it is not
clear, partner promisses to go down
-2 at the given vulnerability, I have
only 3 sure tricks, i.e. we will probably
make 3S, but not 4S.

I pass, at least given my partnership
agreements.

=> In my opinion the hand is to strong for
a weak 2S bid (*), even taking into account, that
we are red vs. green, but this depends.
If this is a typical 2S opener, red vs. green
in 2nd seat (and you should be fairly conservtive,
with this setting), you have to bid 4S.

With kind regards
Marlowe

PS: (*) I may be influenced by seeing both hands.

[jillybean]

neilkaz, on Dec 23 2006, 03:42 PM, said:

1) I really don't think vul is supposed to affect your decisions to open at the 1 level in first or 2nd seat (for me it has almost no effect at the 1 level in 3rd or 4th)

Huh When you are making a decision to preempt or open at the 1level why not consider vulnerability?

[pbleighton]

"Huh When you are making a decision to preempt or open at the 1level why not consider vulnerability?"

Opening in the the first two seats, you should have your minimum hand strength, whatever that is, and however you define it. IMO vulnerability should play little or no role. You either have it or you don't.

For preempts in the the first two seats, you should never preempt with a hand that is good enough to open at the one level.

OTOH, vulnerability definitely plays a role in deciding which hands to open preemptively, and which hands to pass. This is true even for me

Peter

[neilkaz]

jillybean2, on Dec 24 2006, 09:46 AM, said:

neilkaz, on Dec 23 2006, 03:42 PM, said:

1) I really don't think vul is supposed to affect your decisions to open at the 1 level in first or 2nd seat (for me it has almost no effect at the 1 level in 3rd or 4th)

Huh When you are making a decision to preempt or open at the 1level why not consider vulnerability?

jb..perhaps I should have been more specific in my comment, but Peter has allready clarified for us.

For me, vulnerability has absolutely no effect on my decision to open at the 1 level in seats 1&2 or to pass.

Off course, vulnerability is a factor in deciding whether to preempt or not, and the higher the level of my preempt, the more it affects my decision since it can get really ugly when the preempt runs into bad luck or induces PD to make what turns out to be a very unfortunate decision to bid higher.

I won't preempt in seats 1&2 with hands I consider good enough to open normally with 1.

.. neilkaz ..

[jillybean]

pbleighton, on Dec 24 2006, 09:24 AM, said:

For preempts in the the first two seats, you should never preempt with a hand that is good enough to open at the one level.

Right I wasnt playing with Ben here so 1♠ was not an option.

For those who are saying it was too strong for 2♠, do you open 1♠ or pass?

[pbleighton]

"For those who are saying it was too strong for 2♠, do you open 1♠ or pass?'

If I were playing a system where this bid was too good for a 2S bid, I would open 1S. For me, there are no hands too strong for a two bid which aren't strong enough for a one bid.

However, there are hands which are strong enough for a two bid, but which are inappropriate for a two bid, and which must be passed. What is "inappropriate" varies widely by partnership, even more than what is the minimum hand strength for a one bid. I would open the hand in question 2S in both of my current partnerships without any hesitation, the majority in this thread would not.

Peter

[MickyB]

Will we be able to describe this hand better by passing first? Will we be better placed once we hear what others have to say? I doubt it. My style is to get involved immediately with the most appropriate bid. I'd often open this hand 3♠, but 2nd seat vulnerable this would be too much! I wouldn't need much more to open 1♠, but as it is I'm opening 2♠ and missing game.

[P_Marlowe]

jillybean2, on Dec 24 2006, 12:06 PM, said:

pbleighton, on Dec 24 2006, 09:24 AM, said:

For preempts in the the first two seats, you should never preempt with a hand that is good enough to open at the one level.

Right I wasnt playing with Ben here so 1♠ was not an option.

For those who are saying it was too strong for 2♠, do you open 1♠ or pass?

Hi,

I either bid 2S, knowing all to well, that I am a bit
heavy, even taking vulnerability and position into
account, which means I take the blame, if partner
does not get it right, or I would open 3S.

It certainly depens on the opponets I am playing,
the state of the match and the scoring format,
... I ommit the position of the sun relative to moon
and earth.

With kind regards
Marlowe