[jonottawa]

I know, this poll is about as scientific as a class on Intelligent Design. I'm just curious.

[fred]

Even if you think a comparison is possible, I hope you recognize that nobody here knows enough about the facts to provide a sensible answer to your question (not that comparing apples to oranges is sensible at the best of times).

Fred Gitelman
Bridge Base Inc.
www.bridgebase.com

[jonottawa]

I think I reflected my skepticism in the poll results in my initial post. But perceptions often matter more than reality anyway in cases like this.

[luke warm]

jon, you never did answer the question posed in that other thread and i'm not sure why... do you think it is incumbent upon you to follow the rules of an event you participate in?

[hrothgar]

luke warm, on Nov 17 2007, 05:25 AM, said:

jon, you never did answer the question posed in that other thread and i'm not sure why... do you think it is incumbent upon you to follow the rules of an event you participate in?

I can't speak for Jon, however, I'll happily ignore rules that I think are poorly conceived.

I agreed to a surprising number of things when I made the decision to go to college. I'll tell you for a fact that I ignored any number of rules and regulations that seemed inconvenient.

I've played in ACBL events and deliberately played illegal conventions hoping to generate test cases to get certain part of the regulatory structure overturned. Regretfully, the director agreed that the Laws in question were dumb and refused to enforce them.

I'd be quite surprised if anyone on this forum behaves any differently.

Ever decided that you just can't drive 55?
Every had more than a couple beers and driven home?
Ever cheated on a test?
Ever gotten lazy on your tax returns?
Ever screwed your girl friend even though she was 17 and you were 18?
Ever decided not to bother with the recycling this week?

Most people consider large parts of the legal system as optional. They factor in the risk of getting caught and the expect cost associated with being punished. They then make an informed decision whether they will bother abiding by the legal structure.

Moreover, when folks do get caught breaking the rules, they'll typically do whatever they can to avoid punishment.

[han]

hrothgar, on Nov 16 2007, 10:17 PM, said:

Ever had more than a couple beers and driven home?

Richard, I'm very disappointed in you if you think laws against drunk driving are poorly conceived.

[sceptic]

Quote

Ever screwed your girl friend even though she was 17 and you were 18?

From some of the top class magazines I have read about parts of America, should this question not be

Ever screwed your girlfriend even though she was your sister

[1eyedjack]

sceptic, on Nov 17 2007, 08:55 AM, said:

Quote

Ever screwed your girl friend even though she was 17 and you were 18?

From some of the top class magazines I have read about parts of America, should this question not be

Ever screwed your girlfriend even though she was your sister

ROARRING!!!!
That has to be one of the funniest posts in these forums that I have read for many months. Thanks, Wayne

(picking self up off floor, wiping away the tears)

[Gerben42]

The problem is that people will break laws they think should not exist.

Take me for example. When as a pedestrian or cyclist I come to a traffic light and there's no one there but the light is red. I know I cannot wait for it to change to green!

Most traffic lights, although it is slowly improving, are not pedestrian-friendly in the first place. The simple rule: "If the cars in the lane you are crossing have a red light, the pedestrians crossing the lane should have green" is not followed universally.

Call me a rebel but as a pedestrian or cyclist I think the government tries to impose too many red lights on me.

[jonottawa]

Gerben42, on Nov 17 2007, 12:27 PM, said:

The problem is that people will break laws they think should not exist.

Take me for example. When as a pedestrian or cyclist I come to a traffic light and there's no one there but the light is red. I know I cannot wait for it to change to green!

Most traffic lights, although it is slowly improving, are not pedestrian-friendly in the first place. The simple rule: "If the cars in the lane you are crossing have a red light, the pedestrians crossing the lane should have green" is not followed universally.

Call me a rebel but as a pedestrian or cyclist I think the government tries to impose too many red lights on me.

I feel exactly the same way. Unfortunately, we're in the minority.

About 7 years ago, I was pulled over by a pig in an unmarked car with a K-9 dog in the back for running a red light on my bicycle. It was during rush hour and he essentially created a traffic jam for 15 minutes so that he could write me a ticket.

I wrote an angry letter to the Ottawa Citizen (local paper) that got published.

The next day the ENTIRE editorial page (both sides) was full of angry responses to my letter.

Austin is pretty bike-unfriendly (surprisingly) but the one time I've been stopped by a pig for running a red light I got let off with a warning.

[luke warm]

hrothgar, on Nov 16 2007, 10:17 PM, said:

luke warm, on Nov 17 2007, 05:25 AM, said:

jon, you never did answer the question posed in that other thread and i'm not sure why... do you think it is incumbent upon you to follow the rules of an event you participate in?

I can't speak for Jon, however, I'll happily ignore rules that I think are poorly conceived.

i worded my question wrongly... yes i've broken and still break laws (i set the cruise on 75, for example - yes i'm a wild man)... but when i do i wouldn't be surprised if i had to pay some sort of consequence... it seems to me that if you agree to terms or conditions of contest, whether you agree with them or not, you shouldn't be surprised if there are repercussions for breaking them

Quote

I agreed to a surprising number of things when I made the decision to go to college.  I'll tell you for a fact that I ignored any number of rules and regulations that seemed inconvenient.

everyone has... but had there been consequences, would you have been surprised?

Quote

I've played in ACBL events and deliberately played illegal conventions hoping to generate test cases to get certain part of the regulatory structure overturned.

i think this is what i'm talking about... you broke a rule, rules you'd agreed to, on purpose knowing (hoping) ahead of time that there could and probably should be repercussions... i think that's fine... as long as a person is willing to pay the consequence, do what you want

Quote

Moreover, when folks do get caught breaking the rules, they'll typically do whatever they can to avoid punishment.

yes, but won't typically use as a defense "it's a dumb rule (or law or whatever)"... at least they won't say that if they hope to win an argument

jon's post above shows that he thinks laws and rules can be broken at his whim without any negative result... that position can't be logically supported

[kenrexford]

hrothgar, on Nov 16 2007, 10:17 PM, said:

I can't speak for Jon, however, I'll happily ignore rules that I think are poorly conceived.

First, it would be rather amazing to believe that a ban, in an international event like this, where people are representing fellow countrymen, against making political statements would be one that would be ill-advised.

More importantly, though, I wonder about cowardice here. I also might, given just cause, violate a rule if it served a higher purpose. However, I would not then cry over the consequences. When I made the decision to not petition for a change in the rule but rather a decision to simply ignore the rule, I would have made that decision not as an ignorant person but as one who knew and expected but accepted the consequences.

As to the specific questions raised, I'll plead the fifth. However:

Ever decided that you just can't drive 55?

Technically, the "55 Speed Limit" in the U.S. establishes a prima facie case. That means that there is no law stating that you cannot drive over 55. The law is that you cannot drive at a rate of speed that is excessive for the circumstances. If you go 45 in a "55 zone" during a blizzard, the government can cite but must prove beyond a reasonable doubt that your speed was excessive. If you drive 65 in a 55 zone with no traffic, high noon, dry road, then the government can either prove that excessive beyond a reasonable doubt OR prove beyond a reasonable doubt that your speed was 65 in a 55 zone. If the latter, the burden shifts to you to establish by a proponderance that 65 was not excessive for the conditions. If you establish that (by 51% of the weight of the evidence), you win.

Short form of the above: 55 is not a law.

Every had more than a couple beers and driven home?

That also is not a proper statement of the law. However, extrapolating to a proper claim, the answer would be "yes." However, I'll clarify that this occurred long enough ago that the statute of limitations has run, and I will not concede venue. LOL. However, were I caught way back when, I'd accept the sanction. I might claim "cruel and unusual punishment" or even disparate treatment, but both would occur after a conviction. If they could not prove it (not relevant here), I might fight it.

Ever cheated on a test?

No.

Ever gotten lazy on your tax returns?

The IRA may be reading all of my emails and forum posts after the Patriot Act. So...

Ever screwed your girl friend even though she was 17 and you were 18?

The age of consent in Ohio is 16. Welcome all to our next local bridge tournament!

Ever decided not to bother with the recycling this week?

If I did and was fined, I would pay. I would not show up in municipal court and tell the judge that I would continue to throw paper and plastic away the wrong way.

[bid_em_up]

sceptic, on Nov 17 2007, 02:55 AM, said:

Quote

Ever screwed your girl friend even though she was 17 and you were 18?

From some of the top class magazines I have read about parts of America, should this question not be

Ever screwed your girlfriend even though she was your sister

No, but I did screw one once that I think might have been your sister.

[fred]

1eyedjack, on Nov 17 2007, 12:07 PM, said:

sceptic, on Nov 17 2007, 08:55 AM, said:

Quote

Ever screwed your girl friend even though she was 17 and you were 18?

From some of the top class magazines I have read about parts of America, should this question not be

Ever screwed your girlfriend even though she was your sister

ROARRING!!!!
That has to be one of the funniest posts in these forums that I have read for many months. Thanks, Wayne

(picking self up off floor, wiping away the tears)

Apparently not everyone shares your opinion about the humor here.

I received an e-mail this morning from an obviously upset person who has a long history of being a volunteer TD on BBO, a long history of helping us to improve the software, and a long history of contributing to Forums. As far as I can tell, this person is also very normal. He or she is not one of those overly-sensitive politically correct types.

This person thought that the statement in question was so over the top that he or she has lost all interest in participating in Forums.

I don't think it would have taken much thought or imagination for the poster who made this comment to realize that this sort of thing might happen. Whether or not you think such a reaction is reasonable or the remark in question was funny, I don't think that refraining from making jokes on Forums concerning subjects like incest is asking a lot.

Sorry if you think this request violates your inalienable right of free speech. Despite this being "The Water Cooler", speech is not completely free here. This is not "The Men's Room".

Fred Gitelman
Bridge Base Inc.
www.bridgebase.com

[jdonn]

kenrexford, on Nov 17 2007, 08:25 AM, said:

Short form of the above: 55 is not a law.

Really! I'm not saying I don't believe you but that is extremely surprising to me. Can you prove it?

[jonottawa]

kenrexford, on Nov 17 2007, 01:25 PM, said:

Ever gotten lazy on your tax returns?

The IRA may be reading all of my emails and forum posts after the Patriot Act. So...

Why would the IRA care if you cheated on your tax returns or base its conduct on the Patriot Act?

[hrothgar]

Hannie, on Nov 17 2007, 08:13 AM, said:

hrothgar, on Nov 16 2007, 10:17 PM, said:

Ever had more than a couple beers and driven home?

Richard, I'm very disappointed in you if you think laws against drunk driving are poorly conceived.

Hi Han

I was picking examples of laws that I thought that many people have knowingly violated. I agree that people shouldn't drive around drunk, people should pay their taxes, recycling laws are a good idea.

At the same time, there have been occasions where I have suspected that I was over .08%, yet I still chose to drive. I have not always been fastidious regarding my tax returns, I have occasionally failed to separate paper and plastics.

[jonottawa]

fred, on Nov 17 2007, 02:48 PM, said:

1eyedjack, on Nov 17 2007, 12:07 PM, said:

sceptic, on Nov 17 2007, 08:55 AM, said:

Quote

Ever screwed your girl friend even though she was 17 and you were 18?

From some of the top class magazines I have read about parts of America, should this question not be

Ever screwed your girlfriend even though she was your sister

ROARRING!!!!
That has to be one of the funniest posts in these forums that I have read for many months. Thanks, Wayne

(picking self up off floor, wiping away the tears)

Apparently not everyone shares your opinion about the humor here.

I received an e-mail this morning from an obviously upset person who has a long history of being a volunteer TD on BBO, a long history of helping us to improve the software, and a long history of contributing to Forums. As far as I can tell, this person is also very normal. He or she is not one of those overly-sensitive politically correct types.

This person thought that the statement in question was so over the top that he or she has lost all interest in participating in Forums.

I don't think it would have taken much thought or imagination for the poster who made this comment to realize that this sort of thing might happen. Whether or not you think such a reaction is reasonable or the remark in question was funny, I don't think that refraining from making jokes on Forums concerning subjects like incest is asking a lot.

Sorry if you think this request violates your inalienable right of free speech. Despite this being "The Water Cooler", speech is not completely free here. This is not "The Men's Room".

Fred Gitelman
Bridge Base Inc.
www.bridgebase.com

I didn't think the joke was at all funny, either. And I tend to enjoy potty humor. I'd describe it as unoriginal, dull, vapid ...

And of course, this is Fred's site and he sets the rules.

That being said, anyone who quit the forums over that is almost by definition an 'overly-sensitive politically correct type.'

[jonottawa]

jdonn, on Nov 17 2007, 03:08 PM, said:

kenrexford, on Nov 17 2007, 08:25 AM, said:

Short form of the above: 55 is not a law.

Really! I'm not saying I don't believe you but that is extremely surprising to me. Can you prove it?

Ya, that sounds like bunk to me too. Kind of like those guys who argue that the income tax is unconstitutional so you don't have to pay it.

[jonottawa]

bid_em_up, on Nov 17 2007, 02:06 PM, said:

sceptic, on Nov 17 2007, 02:55 AM, said:

Quote

Ever screwed your girl friend even though she was 17 and you were 18?

From some of the top class magazines I have read about parts of America, should this question not be

Ever screwed your girlfriend even though she was your sister

No, but I did screw one once

Speaking of things that sound like bunk...