[Hilver]

Suppose You are using a strong club system in which the opening bid of 1C is 16+ HCP. In this system an opening bid of 1NT is 16-18 balanced. You have the intention to change this in a 14-16 1NT, balanced. Another feature of this biddingsystem is that opening 2NT shows a balanced 19-20 HCP.
So how do You bid a balanced 17-18 HCP?

In the auction:
1C - (pass) - 1D - (pass)
1NT
is 1NT an unbalanced hand with 5+ card D and 16+ HCP.
So You can't use the 1NT-rebid by OH indicating 17-18 HCP, balanced.

Well, what about this option:
1D = 10-18 HCP, 2+ card D and denying a 5 card in hearts or spades.
In the auction:
1D - (pass) - 1H/S - (pass)
1NT
then should be (11) 12-13 HCP, balanced

and in
1D - (pass) - 1H/S - (pass)
2NT
should be a balanced 17-18 HCP (without 5-card H or S).

How big is the risk of overbidding jumping to 2NT with a 17-18 HCP when partner has bid 1H/S promising 6+ HCP and a 4+ card in that suit? What's Your opinion about this option of bidding a 17-18 HCP balanced in this way? What are the arguments in favour of this approach and what are the arguments against this method?

(Don't critize the meaning of 1NT in 1C-(pass) - 1D -(pass) as this part of the system is okay. I do play this bidding system for two years now and it's no problem. Up to now the opening bid of 1NT is 16-18, balanced but I am investigating the arguments to change that in a 14-16 HCP balanced.)

Thanks.

Jan Veerbeek

[TylerE]

Frankly, I think the system stinks. Sorry, but it just doesn't make much sense. Using 1♣-1♦-1NT to show diamonds is just...odd. What's wrong with bidding 2♦ to show diamonds? In a strong club system the 1♦ opening is practically always the systemic weak point and you're thinking of moving even more hand types into it? Just doesn't make sense to me.

[rbforster]

Hilver, on Mar 3 2008, 01:46 PM, said:

In the auction:
1D - (pass) - 1H/S - (pass)
2NT
should be a balanced 17-18 HCP (without 5-card H or S).

I think shading the 1♦...2N jump rebid to 17-18 is tolerable, but probably not great. You will also have to worry about the 17-18 5M332 hands in the auctions

1M-1N-?
1♥-1♠-?

I guess you have to raise to 2N here with 17-18 balanced? I don't know if you use a forcing 1N in response to 1M, but if you do, you might need to increase the strength standards to respond if you'll get raised to 2N sometimes and might otherwise be too high.

Hilver, on Mar 3 2008, 01:46 PM, said:

1C - (pass) - 1D - (pass)
1NT
is 1NT an unbalanced hand with 5+ card D and 16+ HCP.
So You can't use the 1NT-rebid by OH indicating 17-18 HCP, balanced.

(Don't critize the meaning of 1NT in 1C-(pass) - 1D -(pass) as this part of the system is okay. I do play this bidding system for two years now and it's no problem. Up to now the opening bid of 1NT is 16-18, balanced but I am investigating the arguments to change that in a 14-16 HCP balanced.)

Systems are wholes, not just sums of their parts. Your 1♣-1♦ methods may work well in the context of a 16-18 NT, but might need revision if you decide you prefer a 14-16 NT. I know it's easier to adapt to what you already have, but do try to keep an open mind for better combinations of methods. A couple of possible suggestions for you -

1. You might consider playing 1♣-1♦-1♥ as artificial and forcing. Over a 1♠ minimum response, you could use 1NT to show your minimum balanced range of 17-18 (or 17-19 and play a normal 2N opener as 20-21 instead of 19-20).

2. I've seen systems where after 1♣-1♦, one plays 1N and 2♣ as "transfers" showing clubs and diamonds respectively. This has some merit if you don't need the natural NT rebid since these bids are forcing and can handle all the very strong minor hands (unlike a non-forcing 2m where you'd need to jump or something to show strength). In light of this, have you considered using 1N as clubs and 2♣ as diamonds?

Also how are you showing stronger balanced hands presently, 21+? What are you using your 1♣-1♦-2♦ rebid for? If you give us more information about the system you're trying to use, we might be able to suggest smaller modifications that could include the 17-18 balanced hand without disrupting things too much.

[Hilver]

[quote name='Rob F' date='Mar 3 2008, 02:55 PM'][quote name='Hilver' date='Mar 3 2008, 01:46 PM']In the auction:
1D - (pass) - 1H/S - (pass)
2NT
should be a balanced 17-18 HCP (without 5-card H or S).
[/QUOTE]
I think shading the 1[di]...2N jump rebid to 17-18 is tolerable, but probably not great. You will also have to worry about the 17-18 5M332 hands in the auctions

1M-1N-?
1[he]-1[sp]-?

I guess you have to raise to 2N here with 17-18 balanced? I don't know if you use a forcing 1N in response to 1M, but if you do, you might need to increase the strength standards to response if you'll get raised to 2N sometimes and might otherwise be too high.

A balanced 17-18 NT is always opened as 1D and denies a 5 card M.
A 17-18 5M332 is always bid by 1C. After partner response you introduce your 5-card M.

[quote name='Hilver' date='Mar 3 2008, 01:46 PM']1C - (pass) - 1D - (pass)
1NT
is 1NT an unbalanced hand with 5+ card D and 16+ HCP.
So You can't use the 1NT-rebid by OH indicating 17-18 HCP, balanced.

QUOTE]
Systems are wholes, not just sums of their parts. Your 1[cl]-1[di] methods may work well in the context of a 16-18 NT, but might need revision if you decide you prefer a 14-16 NT. I know it's easier to adapt to what you already have, but do try to keep an open mind for better combinations of methods. A couple of possible suggestions for you -

1. You might consider playing 1[cl]-1[di]-1[he] as artificial and forcing. Over a 1[sp] minimum response, you could use 1NT to show your minimum balanced range of 17-18 (or 17-19 and play a normal 2N opener as 20-21 instead of 19-20).

Up to now we do use quite natural rebids. That's fine.

2. I've seen systems where after 1[cl]-1[di], one plays 1N and 2[cl] as "transfers" showing clubs and diamonds respectively. This has some merit if you don't need the natural NT rebid since these bids are forcing and can handle all the very strong minor hands (unlike a non-forcing 2m where you'd need to jump or something to show strength). In light of this, have you considered using 1N as clubs and 2[cl] as diamonds?

Why use 1NT and 2C rebids by opener as a transfer? Responder has already bid diamonds and opener has already bid clubs.

Also how are you showing stronger balanced hands presently, 21+?

AThis way:
1C - (pass) - 1D - (pass)
2NT = 21-22 HCP

1C - (pass) - 1D - (pass)
2H - (pass) - 2S - (pass)
2NT = 22-23 HCP

(2H is Kokish = either GF hearts or 21-22 or 23+ HCP)
(2S = relay)

What are you using your 1[cl]-1[di]-2[di] rebid for?

This way:
1C - (pass) - 1D - (pass)
2D = 4-4-4-1 16-24 HCP

If you give us more information about the system you're trying to use, we might be able to suggest smaller modifications that could include the 17-18 balanced hand without disrupting things too much.[/QUOTE]
A balanced 17-18 NT is always opened as 1D and denies a 5 card M.
A 17-18 5M332 is always bid by 1C. After partner response you introduce your 5-card M.

Up to now we do use quite natural rebids. That's fine.

For instance:
1C - (pass) - 1D - (pass)
2NT = 21-22 HCP

1C - (pass) - 1D - (pass)
2H - (pass) - 2S - (pass)
2NT = 22-23 HCP

(2H is Kokish = either GF hearts or 21-22 or 23+ HCP)
(2S = relay)

1C - (pass) - 1D - (pass)
2D = 4-4-4-1 16-24 HCP

[Mbodell]

Rob F, on Mar 3 2008, 02:55 PM, said:

1. You might consider playing 1♣-1♦-1♥ as artificial and forcing.  Over a 1♠ minimum response, you could use 1NT to show your minimum balanced range of 17-18 (or 17-19 and play a normal 2N opener as 20-21 instead of 19-20).

I second this suggestion. I use the Kokish style heart as a puppet to 1♠ on the way to NT in both my strong club systems (if the follow up isn't NT then it showed hearts). And, in one of my partnerships, I have one of the NT ranges in my 1♦ bid so 1♦ is either unbalanced 10-15 2+♦ or 15-17 balanced. Personally, I'm ok with this as it makes it easier to punish random interference over the 1♦ bid since 40+% of the time you are a strong NT hand more than happy to punish some random 2♠ bid.

So then I have the following NT ladders in the two strong club partnerships I play:

1NT : 12-14
1♦-1M-1NT : 15-17
1♣-1♦-1NT : 18-19
1♣-1♦-1♥-1♠-1NT : 20-21
1♣-1♦-2NT : 22-23
1♣-1♦-1♥-1♠-2NT : 24-25
(in theory keep going up the chain, in practice doesn't happen much)

or:

1NT : 12-15
1♣-1♦-1NT : 16-18
1♣-1♦-1♥-1♠-1NT : 19-21
1♣-1♦-2NT : 22-24
1♣-1♦-1♥-1♠-2NT : 25-27
(in theory keep going up the chain although 1♣-1♦-3NT is actually a specific Ace ask so skip that one)

What I like about both of these systems is when playing opposite a bust hand you often get to play in 1NT not 2NT. Also you get all the benefits of a weak NT opening range which I like (if you are going to get to 1NT with a 12-14 balanced you may as well do it as fast as possible for maximum preemption leaving the slower auction for where you are stronger and where interference is more dangerous for opponents). Also, I like using KERI over 1NT in the bottom system and that lets us use KERI for anything in the 12-21 range. In the top sequence we use 2-way checkback staymen over the 1♦-1M-1NT bids.

So you can't use the 1♣-1♦-1NT sequence because it means something important to you, that could be fine if you can adopt the 1♥-1♠ steps and just either lose a level (like starting with the stronger 14-16 1NT bid) or else have wider NT ranges.