[jillybean]

Dealer: West Vul: NS Scoring: IMP

♠ T4 ♥ AQ76 ♦ AJ986 ♣ K7

West North East South

 Pass  1♥    1♠    2♠
 3♠    Pass  4♠    ? 

Do you agree with 2♠?
Does Jacoby2nt apply over interferance?

What now?

[inquiry]

jillybean2, on Mar 31 2008, 09:33 AM, said:

Scoring: IMP

---

What now?

It is a guess without input from partner. You are much better you could be for 2♠ and pass was not forcing by partner (after a jump to 4♦ it would have been). Any thing could be right, you are in the dark. Sadly, so was partner. I guess i would bid 5♦ and hope partner has a singleton ♠ whether than a small doubleton.

West North East South

Pass 1♥ 1♠ 2♠
3♠ Pass 4♠ ?

Do you agree with 2♠?

No, I do not agree with 2♠. I think a fit jump to 4♦ is far superior. Let partner help you make a decision.

Does Jacoby2nt apply over interferance?

Not for me. However, i do play 2NT as a raise, just not game forcing.

[Walddk]

Jacoby applies after interference if you have an agreement. If not, it's natural (11-12). I think it's best to play 2NT as Jacoby (or similar) and let the cue bid show an invitational hand with support.

By doing so you give opener one more step to re-invite if he wishes.

As for the problem here, I double. I have no guarantee of a safe haven in 5♥.

Roland

[hrothgar]

Hi Kathryn

Comment 1: Jacoby 2NT doesn't apply after interference. Most pairs use a direct cue bid (2♠ in this case) to show many of the hands that would normally be shown by 2NT. The one (potential) exception to this rule is auctions that start

1M - (X). Lots of folks still use 2NT to show a good raise with 4+ card trump support. However, the minimum strength required for this bid is quite a bit lighter than a Jacoby 2NT. (Jacoby 2NT is game forcing, this raise is forcing to 3M only). I think that this convention is often referred to as Truscott.

Comment 2: Like Ben, I think that its best to play fit jumps in competition. Unlike Ben, I'd only bid 3♦. I think that 4♦ significantly misrepresents ODR.

Comment 3: Competitive bidding is one of the most important parts of the modern game. I think that's worth while to invest some energy in getting a good set of agreements with your partner. For example, in this auction you migfht want to sort out the different between

1♥ - (1♠) - 2NT = 4+ card trump support, high odr
1♥ - (1♠) - 2♠ = 3 card trump support or (4 with a low ODR)
1♥ - (1♠) - fit jump = 4+ card trump with shape

Some pairs are willing to sacrifice a natural 2NT response even when this is the lowest NT bid available. For example, consider the auction

1♠ - (2♦) - 2NT

There are some very good pairs that would treat 2NT as a conventional bid showing Spade support. These pairs feel that its so important to distinquish between 3 card and 4+ card raises that they are willing to sacrifice the "natural" meaning of 2NT. (I have values and a Diamond stopper). As I mentioned, some very good pairs bid this way, but it adds a lot of complexity to other parts of the advancing structure...

[Walddk]

hrothgar, on Mar 31 2008, 04:50 PM, said:

However, the minimum strength required for this bid is quite a bit lighter than a Jacoby 2NT.  (Jacoby 2NT is game forcing, this raise is forcing to 3M only).  I think that this convention is often referred to as Truscott.

No, Truscott (or Jordan in North America) applies after a double, not after an overcall.

http://homepage.mac.com/bridgeguys/Convent...TwoNoTrump.html

Roland

[cherdano]

Walddk, on Mar 31 2008, 08:55 AM, said:

hrothgar, on Mar 31 2008, 04:50 PM, said:

However, the minimum strength required for this bid is quite a bit lighter than a Jacoby 2NT.  (Jacoby 2NT is game forcing, this raise is forcing to 3M only).  I think that this convention is often referred to as Truscott.

No, Truscott (or Jordan in North America) applies after a double, not after an overcall.

Roland

I am really tempted to put up my old signature again, about reading what you reply to etc.

[Walddk]

cherdano, on Mar 31 2008, 04:57 PM, said:

Walddk, on Mar 31 2008, 08:55 AM, said:

hrothgar, on Mar 31 2008, 04:50 PM, said:

However, the minimum strength required for this bid is quite a bit lighter than a Jacoby 2NT.  (Jacoby 2NT is game forcing, this raise is forcing to 3M only).  I think that this convention is often referred to as Truscott.

No, Truscott (or Jordan in North America) applies after a double, not after an overcall.

Roland

I am really tempted to put up my old signature again, about reading what you reply to etc.

My apologies. hrothgar did mention double.

Roland

[whereagles]

Dbl now.

[inquiry]

A couple of side issues...

Roland is right that "Jordon 2NT" is over a double. However, a jump to 2NT doesn't have to be 11-12 balanced. In the very first chapter of robson/segal's "Partnership bidding at Bridge" (1993), this specific auction is discussed (it is the FIRST example auction in the book).

1♥ - (1♠) -

The raises they mention this early are bids of 2♥, 3♥, 2♠, 3♣, 3♦ and 2NT (for 2NT, they say in chapter 1 to be discussed in chapter 2).

• 2♥ weak raise with 3 cards
  
• 3♥ preemptive raise with four card support
  
• 2♠ - high card point raise, limited initially but could be game force shown later. Generally 3 card support (see 2NT)
  
• 3♣ and 3♦ =limit raise with fair side suit (fit jump)
  
• 2NT = high-card raise with four (plus) trumps and a reasonably high ODR -’limit or better’ values (taken from chapter 2...
  ===
  
• 4♣/4♦ (discussed later) fit jumps with sufficient offense for the 4 level (either too strong for limit raise, or limit raise values but with extra distribution/intermediates allowing game).

Much of chapter 2 and later chapters deal with 2NT as limit raise plus. So it certaintly can be played as a raise of the five card major.

As for the difference between 3♦ and 4♦, richard proposed that 3♦ was "enough" because "I think that 4♦ significantly misrepresents ODR."

While it it true, 4531 or 4621 shape are better for fit jumps, and while it is true you discount ACE in your fit jump suit (aces take tricks on offense or defense), that the ODR of this hand is roughly equal. On the other hand, 1) we are vul, 2) we do have a good four card fit for partner who opened, and 3) we have 14 hcp. To me, this says we have more than sufficient values to force to game. Also, give our doubleton spade and the vulnerabilty, it is at least reasonable to expect to hear a 4♠ bid on your left if LHO fits spades. 3♦ while maybe closer on ODR, misses a key point. Over their 4♠ (after 3♦) pass by partner is not forcing, while after 4♦ it is. That is the key feature, that separates these bids. If they were kind enough to pass over 3♦ and partners 3♥ signoff, we could bid 4♥ and all would be well.. dang nabit these opponents.

[EricK]

inquiry, on Mar 31 2008, 04:35 PM, said:

A couple of side issues...

Roland is right that "Jordon 2NT" is over a double. However, a jump to 2NT doesn't have to be 11-12 balanced. In the very first chapter of robson/segal's "Partnership bidding at Bridge" (1993), this specific auction is discussed (it is the FIRST example auction in the book).

1♥ - (1♠) -

The raises they mention this early are bids of 2♥, 3♥, 2♠, 3♣, 3♦ and 2NT (for 2NT, they say in chapter 1 to be discussed in chapter 2).

• 2♥ weak raise with 3 cards
  
• 3♥ preemptive raise with four card support
  
• 2♠ - high card point raise, limited initially but could be game force shown later. Generally 3 card support (see 2NT)
  
• 3♣ and 3♦ =limit raise with fair side suit (fit jump)
  
• 2NT = high-card raise with four (plus) trumps and a reasonably high ODR -’limit or better’ values (taken from chapter 2...
  ===
  
• 4♣/4♦ (discussed later) fit jumps with sufficient offense for the 4 level (either too strong for limit raise, or limit raise values but with extra distribution/intermediates allowing game).

Much of chapter 2 and later chapters deal with 2NT as limit raise plus. So it certaintly can be played as a raise of the five card major.

As for the difference between 3♦ and 4♦, richard proposed that 3♦ was "enough" because "I think that 4♦ significantly misrepresents ODR."

While it it true, 4531 or 4621 shape are better for fit jumps, and while it is true you discount ACE in your fit jump suit (aces take tricks on offense or defense), that the ODR of this hand is roughly equal. On the other hand, 1) we are vul, 2) we do have a good four card fit for partner who opened, and 3) we have 14 hcp. To me, this says we have more than sufficient values to force to game. Also, give our doubleton spade and the vulnerabilty, it is at least reasonable to expect to hear a 4♠ bid on your left if LHO fits spades. 3♦ while maybe closer on ODR, misses a key point. Over their 4♠ (after 3♦) pass by partner is not forcing, while after 4♦ it is. That is the key feature, that separates these bids. If they were kind enough to pass over 3♦ and partners 3♥ signoff, we could bid 4♥ and all would be well.. dang nabit these opponents.

Playing this structure I would prefer 2NT to 4♦.

1. Suits headed by an Ace don't necessarily need support for the hands to fit well. Make the ♦ KJxxx and the ♣Ax and a fit jump looks better.
2. 4♦ forces LHO to bid 4♠ straight away if he has support, which means you will be guessing to a certain extent on the next round. Bidding 2NT might give you another bid below game (eg LHO bids 3♠ and it's passed round to you).
3. If the opps don't have a fit, 4♦ will very often elicit 4♥ from partner and you do have extras but no way to show them, whereas 2NT leaves you more room.

[jillybean]

I doubled for -690 when the opps turned up with this:

Scoring: IMP

---

West North East South

 Pass  1♥    1♠    2♠
 3♠    Pass  4♠    Dbl
 Pass  Pass  Pass 

Lead A♥ 



And thanks for the replies, some good food for thought but as it was this was with
a pickup partner and I was told afterwards that I should bid J2nt. Without agreements I thought 2♠ was the safest path.

[P_Marlowe]

#1 yes, as long as partner knows, that this
shows a fit and at least inv. values
#2 some play 2NT as fit showing raise, but it is
certainly not standard, and as long as I have
other areas to work on, I would not bother
#3 X

With kind regards
Marlowe

[inquiry]

EricK, on Mar 31 2008, 12:17 PM, said:

Playing this structure I would prefer 2NT to 4♦.

1. Suits headed by an Ace don't necessarily need support for the hands to fit well. Make the ♦ KJxxx and the ♣Ax and a fit jump looks better.

As I noted, fit jumps in suits headed by the ACE are not generally recommended as the ACE is good for both offense and defense, and thus ODR neutral. The diamond suit does have the JACK-NINE-EIGHT however (with Axxxx I would not fit jump). This suit has to meed the requirements for a fit jump.

Quote

2. 4♦ forces LHO to bid 4♠ straight away if he has support, which means you will be guessing to a certain extent on the next round. Bidding 2NT might give you another bid below game (eg LHO bids 3♠ and it's passed round to you).

4♦ doesn't force WEST to bid 4♠. It forces him to bid 4♠ if he wants to show his support. At this vul, you have to anticipate a competitive auction. The good news about 4♦, since it is game force, it ESTABLISHES a game force situation, and consequentially a FORCING PASS situation should WEST bid 4♠. 2NT should not establish forcing pass as it was limit raise or better. Robson/Segal actually give the auction 1♥-(1♠)-2NT-(4♠) and state that it DOES NOT ESTABLISH A FORCING PASS. I think this outweighs the any consideration of choosing 2NT over the more descriptive 4♦.

Quote

3. If the opps don't have a fit, 4♦ will very often elicit 4♥ from partner and you do have extras but no way to show them, whereas 2NT leaves you more room

You don't really have that much extra. 5422. Your two spades are a bad number, your diamonds aren't strong. Your club king will be useful, either partner has the ACE or it is well placed. All 4♦ says is "I have enough to force to 4♥, I have 5+ diamonds and 4♥+". Sounds pretty descriptive to me.

And look at the hand Jilly has now posted. Over a fit jump to 4♦ is there any doubt that north would bid 5♥? As it is, after 2NT and 3♦ and 2♠ (none of which establish forcing pass), you are back in the guessing mode. And often, many will guess wrong, like all the people who choose to dbl on this hand. I guessed right above by bidding on over 4♠, but like those who guessed double, I too guessed. Bridge is a partnership game, and 4♦ clue's your partner in so you can make better decisions.

And give partner something close to what he had...

♠x ♥KJxxxx ♦KQx ♣Axx

And he will use blackwood and slam will be bid.

[EricK]

inquiry, on Mar 31 2008, 07:26 PM, said:

And give partner something close to what he had...

♠x ♥KJxxxx ♦KQx ♣Axx

And he will use blackwood and slam will be bid.

But give him something like Kxx KJxxxx x AQx and slam probably won't be bid as he will discount his singleton ♦.

It is not clear to me that 4♦ (I have the offensive strength for the 4 level and 5 card diamonds) fills him in more than 2NT (I have an all round hand with the offensive and defensive strength for at least the 3 level).

[Cascade]

jillybean2, on Apr 1 2008, 08:02 AM, said:

And thanks for the replies, some good food for thought but as it was this was with
a pickup partner and I was told afterwards that I should bid J2nt. Without agreements I thought 2♠ was the safest path.

Without agreement i think 2♠ is much safer than 2NT.

You can play 2NT as system on after interference. We have a general agreement to play system on over any one-step suit overcall i.e. 1♣ (1♦), 1♦ (1HE), 1♥ (1♠). In all of these auctions we ignore the overcall when making our raise (there are actually a couple of minor changes over minor openings)

[han]

I think you were a bit unlucky Kathryn. 2S was a good bid.