[Mbodell]

Scoring: IMP

1♥-3♦-4♥-P
4NT-P-5♣-P ; 1430kc, 1 or 4
5♦-P-6♥-P ; Q? , HQ but no side K
??

---

Teams, compact-KO, you are in a 3-way final for 1/2/3 in your bracket, and this is the first board of one of the 3-ways (you will play 2 12 board matches to determine 1st, 2nd, and 3rd), against a team of unknown strength.

[the hog]

No. I have already stuffed up the bidding by making that fatuous 4NT bid. How on earth can I find out the information I need to know know?

[karlson]

I'd pass and hope I make it.

[P_Marlowe]

Pass.

Keep in mind, that partner did not bid 4D, and they did not raise diamonds,
given the vulnerability it is not 100% clear how important this issue is, but
partner can still hold 2 diamond, ... and you still have 11 bords to go.

With kind regards
Marlowe

[Fluffy]

pass... can count only 11 tricks, so lets hope we make this.

[Cascade]

PASS otherwise I need to take thirteen tricks right?

[effervesce]

What would 4♦ be by partner? High card 4♥ raise or shortage? But yeah I agree with the othe posters, I'm not gambling on 7 with this hand. 6 is enough. If you can't count 13 tricks its usually best to stay in 6.

[655321]

Agree with everyone and pass, would never bid 7 here. Sure there might be 13 tricks but there might also be an unavoidable loser, or there might be only 12 tricks.

[skjaeran]

When it's far from certain that I can make 6, I won't think of venturing a grand.

[benlessard]

Im with the school that 3H by partner is a decent single raise, 4H is a limt raise and 4D is a GF raise and not a splinter. So partner is streching when hes bidding 4H

I also think that partner with the Q of H and a stiff diamond can bid 6D and not 6H. I would do it even for a S singleton (bidding 5S) but its open for discussion.

So i guess partner hand is something like.

x
Qxxxx
xx
Axxxx

or

Qx
Qxxxx
xx
AJxx

or

Qx
Qxxx
Qxx
AJxx

So ill stay in 6.

[Cascade]

effervesce, on Aug 24 2009, 10:48 PM, said:

What would 4♦ be by partner? High card 4♥ raise or shortage? But yeah I agree with the othe posters, I'm not gambling on 7 with this hand. 6 is enough. If you can't count 13 tricks its usually best to stay in 6.

I think this is too pessimistic.

Frequently one should bid a grand even without being able to count 13 tricks.

[kenrexford]

Out of curiosity, what are people's takes on this auction as to the 6♥ call?

I'm not sure, but it seems to me that, in response to 5♦ as a queen-ask, partner should bid:

1. 5♥ without the queen
2. 5♠ with the queen and also the spade king
3. 6♣ with the queen, not the spade king, but the club king
4. 6♦ with the queen, not the spade king, not the club king, but the diamond ace or stiff,
5. 5NT with no kings, no second-round diamond control, but something of interest, or
6. 6♥ with the queen but no kings, no second-round diamond control, and nothing of interest

Thus, by partner's 6♥ call, I would assume that he has at least two diamonds, the club Ace, the heart Queen, and no club King. He has nothing of interest in clubs (because I'm looking at the club Queen) and nothing else of interest either. The obvious "other interest" would be the spade Queen.

Can he have that hand?

Maybe ♠Jx ♥Qxxx ♦Qxx ♣AJxx? That seems a tad light for a 4♥ call, but he was under pressure. Maybe another heart and one less club? Let's give him that. ♠Jx ♥Qxxxx ♦Qxx ♣AJx. The fifth trump is nice, under pressure, but the diamond Queen looks almost worthless.

Whatever partner has, though, he seems all but forced to have a doubleton spade and at least four hearts, contextually. That seems to get rid of any spade losers, but where are the diamond losers going?

Maybe partner has a doubleton diamond, and perhaps better clubs. Maybe ♠Jx ♥Qxxxx ♦Qx ♣AJ109. I like this hand a lot. I might get rid of the two spade losers with ruffs, and a ruffing finesse against RHO gets rid of the diamond losers. That said, partner is hardly forced to have the club 9.

Thus, I pass.

Had partner bid 5NT, then screwing around with a try back might make more sense.

[ONEferBRID]

Remember, the asker does NOT guarantee ALL key cards with the trump Q-ask when it is BELOW the 5-of-trump. But he does ( or should ) promise FOUR key cards.

My replies ( which are mostly like KenR's, but different ) to the 5D trump Q-ask:

5H = no hQ
5S = hQ + sK

5NT = hQ + dK but no sK ( bidding NT shows the feature--K in this case-- in the "asking" suit )
[ I didn't make this up. I believe it is in Kantar's RKC structure or a hybrid of his and another collaborator;
the "NT" bid is a "cheaper"( lower level) reply than the normal 6D reply;
it is used to save space and allow for subsequent "asks" if needed;
the same technique is used in specific K-asks ].

6C = hQ + cK but no sK or dK

6D = an extra space below 6-trump (6H )

6H = hQ and no outside K and nothing more that a 6D reply could offer.
- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - -
And just what could a 6D reply here mean ?
First off, it does show the hQ.
I think what might be most helpful is that it also shows the 5th key card . [ And yes, I made this one up ].
That means the 6H reply would also mean "no 5th key card".

[kenrexford]

ONEferBRID, on Aug 24 2009, 09:01 PM, said:

Remember, the asker does NOT guarantee ALL key cards with the trump Q-ask when it is BELOW the 5-of-trump. But he does ( or should ) promise FOUR key cards.

My replies ( which are mostly like KenR's, but different ) to the 5D trump Q-ask:

5H = no hQ
5S = hQ + sK

5NT = hQ + dK but no sK ( bidding NT shows the feature--K in this case-- in the "asking" suit )
[ I didn't make this up. I believe it is in Kantar's RKC structure or a hybrid of his and another collaborator;
the "NT" bid is a "cheaper"( lower level) reply than the normal 6D reply;
it is used to save space and allow for subsequent "asks" if needed;
the same technique is used in specific K-asks ].

6C = hQ + cK but no sK or dK

6D = an extra space below 6-trump (6H )

6H = hQ and no outside K and nothing more that a 6D reply could offer.
- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - -
And just what could a 6D reply here mean ?
First off, it does show the hQ.
I think what might be most helpful is that it also shows the 5th key card . [ And yes, I made this one up ].
That means the 6H reply would also mean "no 5th key card".

Up to a point, I followed you. I also liked the idea of inverting 6♦ and 5NT, which suffers from restricting options to describe non-King assets but gains in allowing more description of king-holding extra assets, which might be better. Not sure.

I also followed and agreed with your general idea that 6♦ should be last train, or sorts.

Where I lost you was that 6♦ says something about key cards. Didn't the answer to 4NT give a precise number of key cards? How would this change?

If the extra key card is an implied Queen in an implied 6-key-card asking bid, which is quite a leap as an assumption, then that might make some sense, perhaps.

But, what the Heck did YOU mean?

[Mbodell]

The full hands were:

Scoring: IMP

---

And I did plead temporary insanity and bid 7. Fortunately on the opening ♦K lead with no ruff I was able to make 7 by ♦A, ♠AK (pitching d), ♣A and a ♣ruff dropping the K.

Of course the true riskiness of my aggressiveness was clear when the other table was in 4♥ making 7.

As an aside, I also generally switch the 5nt and 6♦ response so 5nt shows ♥Q, not ♠K, ♦K. Although I haven't played with this particular partner enough to be 100% sure of that. I usually have the "freed up calls" be showing Q or 3rd round controls, although there is an argument where there is only room for 1 that it could just be a generally good in context last train. Sometimes there are more than just one free space (with kickbacks or relays starting keycard much lower).

[ONEferBRID]

I'll try to answer KenR's question.
You are right. I have to plead temporary insanity as well.
The TOTAL number of key cards has been established by the 4NT-ask.
I don't know what I was thinking when I tried to assign another to the available
"free step" ( 6D ) reply to the trump Q-ask replies in light of holding NO outside K's.

Honestly, I don't know what 6D! should imply.
It could mean in general: an "unkown extra" (such as an outside Q somewhere) which in most cases would probably be too vague but partner may be able to ascertain that.

- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - -
Now for the actual deal, from Mbodell, I see that the repiler to RKC ( North ) could not make the "void reply" since there isn't room for one BELOW 6H for "odd(1 key) + Sp void".
Thus, when Hts are trump and you showed an ODD number of key cards to the 4NT-ask, the "free step" in the Q-ask could show the Sp-void ( in addition to the hQ ) that it could not earlier.
Again, partner would have to ascertain whether this helps or not for a grand slam.

[Note: If the replier to the 4NT-ask had an EVEN number of key cards, say 2, + a void somewhere, then 5NT would show that ].

- - Don - -