[TylerE]

p - (p) - 1♣ - (p)
1♠ - (p) - 2♠ - (p)
p - (x) - p - (3♣)
p - (3♥) - X!?!?


Pure penalty, or cooperative?

[Jlall]

Absolutely penalty, good thread title it applies here.

[paca1987]

Just Penalty, if he has a good hand he can star with XX over 2♠.
(sometimes its dangerous lol)

[TylerE]

I think you're misreading the auction paca. The last X is *by* the 2♠ bidder, not over him.

[lmilne]

I think this is the best treatment vs bad bids by most players, but vs the very best players, you have to wonder what they are up to... they probably aren't making a terrible bid in a spot where you might think a bid is obviously terrible.

In some situations they might be walking the dog in a situation you haven't come across. Don't think this counts though (the 'bad bidder' passed as dealer and then at first chance to overcall, I doubt he will turn up with 8 solid )

[Free]

This is a rule of thumb. X is penalty.

[mich-b]

I think a good rule is :
If we have both bid , and already stopped in a partscore , all doubles are for penalty.

[helene_t]

TylerE, on Dec 3 2009, 05:34 AM, said:

I think you're misreading the auction paca. The last X is *by* the 2♠ bidder, not over him.

I think Paca read it it correctly.

Anyway, xx would show interest in defending so xx followed by an x would certainly be penalty.

Maybe this double is still penalty on the theory that ..... as the title says it. It is possible that the 3♣ bid was meant as natural but takes as "you chose". On the other hand, the 3♥ bidder could be walking the dog with 6-4 in the reds.

[OleBerg]

TylerE, on Dec 3 2009, 06:34 AM, said:

I think you're misreading the auction paca. The last X is *by* the 2♠ bidder, not over him.

I read it like paca.

The 2♠ bidder could have redoubled the first double, if he wanted partner to cooperate.

Therefore the second double is pure penalty. (That's pure technique.)

When 2♠ is doubled in the pass-out seat, I would never suspect a "clever" opponent. A direct 3♥ might be a little suspicious, but it is all quite simple: I double it, if I have enough defensive potential, including something in hearts.

Considerations about "clever" opponents should not influence what the double mean. But they could be taken into account, when we decide whether to make a penalty double or not.