[gwnn]

I don't think he got it backwards. Who would you say has the "tools" after a 1NT opening? I would say it's opener, since responder is doing the description. He says things like "OK I have 5 hearts and 4 spades and 8-9 points." etc.

[whereagles]

Lets get one thing straight then. After you open 1NT, responder describes because we're looking for a fit.

After 1M-2NT there already IS a fit, so priorities change into the LEVEL of play, and it's OPENER who is better placed to decide on that.

[gwnn]

The thing is still that for example responder will have QJx xxx in the minors and it would be good to know where opener has length/shortness. Of course Opener could also relay with some sort of alpha beta zeta ask about queens and jacks and that might be workable but it just seems simpler to do it the other way around. The hand that is more likely to have shortness should be better equipped to show it.

[whereagles]

But you CAN keep the 3x shortness bids. Just that the philosophy will no longer be

1M 2NT
3x

3x = "got a short suit here. What do we do?"

but rather:

3x = "there may be a slam here... how much hcp do you have outside this suit?"

and then you can do step responses, e.g. 1st step = yuck. 2nd step = min outside, etc...

For instance, you can do a scheme like:

1M 2NT
3x = asks for hcp outside this suit
3M = decent hand, but not interested in going above game
3NT = serious, usually no shortness (e.g. 6322 16+ or 18-19 bal)
4x = side suit, looking for an alternative 44 fit for slam. Resp bids 1st step with fit
4M = lousy hand, very bad side controls (e.g. quack based hand)

Note the 3x and 4x bids are tools to set up the level of play, while the rest leave it to pard to decide, just in case he has more than the expected 12-15 bal.

This is just the basic skeleton. You can do a lot of tweaking and maximizing from here on. (For example, condense the shortness bids into a generic 3♣, so that the 44 fit question are done at a lower level, etc.)

[ONEferBRID]

1) is Jac2NT and most hate the 4M = minimum open reply.

Better is ( and almost anything is better than regular Jac2NT ):
2) Swedish2NT = limit or better and Opener then has the following replies:
3C! = minimum open; 3D! then askes for shortness, if any.
3D! = "extras" and balanced ( no shortness )
3H!/3S! = extras with C/D shortage
3NT! = extras with shortage in other Major
edit

After 3C! by Opener, if Responder rebids 3M it shows the limit raise hand and is non-forcing.

1M - Swedish2NT
4C/4D/4H( if 1S open) = 2nd "good" 5 card suit; ergo shortness somewhere
( the same as Jac2NT ).

After:
1M - 2NT!
3C! - 3D!
??
3H!/3S! = min with Cl/Diam shortage
3NT! = min with shortage in the other Major
4C/4D/ (4H if 1S open ) = a courtesy cue w/no shortness (edit)

- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - -
edit
In other words there are 2-ways ( minimum or extras) for Opener to show shortage with the same 3H!/3S!/3NT! bid .
With Jac2NT when shortness is shown, Opener is still unlimited.

[suokko]

To me it looks like here is going some wrong assumptions. For me responder has as big chance as opener to have extras so auction has to stay 2-way also cue biding with (non)serious 3NT and LTTC gives the best slam biding tools to limit strength and location of honors same time.

3♣ extras
3♦ minimum
3♥ 10+ cards in M+♣
3♠ 10+ cards in M+♦
3NT 10+ cards in M+OM
4♣ void
4♦ void
4OM void in OM and extras
4M void in OM and minimum

3♣:
3♦ asking shortness
3♥-3NT 5+ side suit
4 level cues strong SI+

3♣-3♦:
3♥ none, Do you have shortness?
3♠ OM
3NT ♦
4♣ ♣

3♦:
3♥ shortness asking
3♠+ cue biding

[nigel_k]

IMO it's better for the unbalanced hand to describe and if anyone is 'captain' it's the balanced hand.

After a 1NT opening for example, you could use relays to complete the description of opener's hand but it just doesn't work that well because you honour location is so important and you don't discover that until it's too late. It's better for the unbalanced responder to start describing even when opener is as well defined as a 1NT opening.

I would suggest two things:

1) There should be different approaches for a balanced responder compared to an unbalanced one. So opener describe only when responder is balanced.

2) I think there is merit in a split range, e.g. 1S-2NT is say 10-11 or 15+ and 1S-3NT is 12-14. The downside is being a level higher on some fairly common hand types, but you can use all the space to describe shape as values are already known.

[whereagles]

This hasn't anything to do with relays, people. Anyway I give up... lol