[blackshoe]

If the White Book is simply commentary, and has no standing as say interpretation, that's one thing. If the White Book says, in effect, "in this case, you rule this way" then it is regulation. The Orange Book is definitely regulation. The RA (or TO if so delegated) has a duty to make its regulations available to players.

It appears the EBU wishes to limit "players" in its events to paid up members of the EBU. Fair enough. I think though that the EBU will find that many non-EBU players who in the past participated in EBU events will no longer bother to do so. Perhaps the EBU will be lucky and this will not materially affect their bottom line — only time will tell.

[jeremy69]

Quote

It appears the EBU wishes to limit "players" in its events to paid up members of the EBU. Fair enough. I think though that the EBU will find that many non-EBU players who in the past participated in EBU events will no longer bother to do so. Perhaps the EBU will be lucky and this will not materially affect their bottom line — only time will tell.

Nothing new about this. With a few exceptions for novice events and for foreigners wishing to play you must be a member of the EBU to play in one of their events.

[mjj29]

jeremy69, on Apr 17 2010, 12:23 PM, said:

You are, I think, saying that the OB (regulations) and WB (commentary on the laws) are not membership benefits but they are. It is not a requirement to produce either and many countries do not. You may have an opinion that they should be published in the way that they have been but that does not mean that they must be or will be.

That is precisely what I am saying and you disagree. You say that other countries do no produce such and that there is no requirement (from whom?) that they be published such. This is strictly true. However, are you suggesting that not producing them or not publishing them is a virtue we (the EBU) should aspire to? Surely not. RAs which do not produce regulations or publish their interpretations are not doing their job properly. The EBU has traditionally been one of the RAs which does an excellent job at this and it is an RA I'm proud to be a member of. I would not be if the EBU were to behave like the ACBL and other RAs who do not govern well.

As to whether they will be - that is, surely, up to those, like yourself, who hold positions of power within the EBU. We can only try to convince you that the benefits of publically available orange and white books outweighs any benefit that closing them would provide. Many arguments for opening them have been provided, the only thing which has been said for closing them is "we should offer benefits to our members". I see no evidence that the OB or WB provide significant benefit to the membership _by being closed_ or that membership numbers will be influenced by this fact.

[blackshoe]

jeremy69, on Apr 17 2010, 02:01 PM, said:

Quote

It appears the EBU wishes to limit "players" in its events to paid up members of the EBU. Fair enough. I think though that the EBU will find that many non-EBU players who in the past participated in EBU events will no longer bother to do so. Perhaps the EBU will be lucky and this will not materially affect their bottom line — only time will tell.

Nothing new about this. With a few exceptions for novice events and for foreigners wishing to play you must be a member of the EBU to play in one of their events.

It was foreigners of which I was thinking.

[Rossoneri]

jeremy69, on Apr 17 2010, 06:23 PM, said:

Quote

Maybe some thought needs to be given to what "benefit" means. If a publication concerning laws and regulations is a "benefit", then something is seriously wrong.

I agree. What is seriously wrong is that some people believe that they can have something for nothing. The laws are available and whether you want to buy them or download them you can. The White Book is an attempt at a helpful commentary so if unaffiliated clubs want this then they should contribute. Peronally I would have no problem if the book was available but at a charge which covered the printing and work involved. That way the member clubs see a benefit (useful book produced and available to them free) and the unaffiliated clubs that wish to have this pay a sum to make a contribution to the cost.

Either you are totally misunderstanding my point, or you are trying to twist my words.

It has already been mentioned that in practice, non-affiliated clubs are not even looking at the White Book, hence they not obtaining any benefit for all practical purposes.

What you and the committee have done here is to define the White Book as a "benefit", which you feel that making available for free to all would make the whole organisation poorer for it.

Quote

The English Bridge Union Limited (EBU) is a membership-funded organisation committed to promoting the game of duplicate bridge.

So I ask you, how is limiting a commentary on the laws of bridge to members only going to help your cause of promoting the game of duplicate bridge if non-members who have a casual interest to just see the laws can't even get to see a commentary which would help them in understanding?

And even so, how would a non-affiliated club looking at the White Book make the EBU poorer for it? Surely you are not going to tell me that the bandwidth from downloading the pdf file is going to net EBU a loss?

On the other hand, the cost of producing the White Book is already a sunk cost, and since the White Book is meant for better understanding of the laws, surely making it available to non-members can hardly cost anything.

What I have seen representative of your replies is an attitude that is best outlined as: You have not affiliated with us so we are going to take away everything that we think will be of any benefit to you. Us vs Them. I do not know if this is reflective of the real situation, but this is certainly what I am getting from you. You claim that your views representative of the committee, which I last read in the EBU magazine as trying to promote "universal membership".

[mjj29]

Rossoneri, on Apr 17 2010, 03:15 PM, said:

What you and the committee have done here is to define the White Book as a "benefit", which you feel that making available for free to all would make the whole organisation poorer for it.

Quote

The English Bridge Union Limited (EBU) is a membership-funded organisation committed to promoting the game of duplicate bridge.

So I ask you, how is limiting a commentary on the laws of bridge to members only going to help your cause of promoting the game of duplicate bridge if non-members who have a casual interest to just see the laws can't even get to see a commentary which would help them in understanding?

And even so, how would a non-affiliated club looking at the White Book make the EBU poorer for it? Surely you are not going to tell me that the bandwidth from downloading the pdf file is going to net EBU a loss?

On the other hand, the cost of producing the White Book is already a sunk cost, and since the White Book is meant for better understanding of the laws, surely making it available to non-members can hardly cost anything.

What I have seen representative of your replies is an attitude that is best outlined as: You have not affiliated with us so we are going to take away everything that we think will be of any benefit to you. Us vs Them. I do not know if this is reflective of the real situation, but this is certainly what I am getting from you. You claim that your views representative of the committee, which I last read in the EBU magazine as trying to promote "universal membership".

hear hear

[jallerton]

bluejak, on Mar 21 2010, 11:53 PM, said:

I find the updating principle worrying.  Currently it means that no-one seems to have an up-to-date Orange book, as I have discovered recently in Deva BC and the Ranked Masters.

As for every TD at EBU Congresses having Orange and White books on their computer, sadly, this is just not true.

jeremy69, on Mar 22 2010, said:

You may be right but that isn't what I said. All the EBU computers that go to congresses have had(as of last week) the new White Book put on them.

Bluejak is still correct. At an EBU event yesterday, the TD came up to my partner to ask what a particular section of the Orange Book said, explaining that the version of Orange Book on his computer was not the most up-to-date one.

Later, I walked past the TD's table and spotted a hard copy of the White Book. Had the TD invested a couple of ink cartridges in printing out the recently introduced 2010 White Book? No, of course not. It was the 2006 version, that being the latest version which has been properly published in book format.

[gordontd]

jallerton, on Apr 18 2010, 11:43 PM, said:

Later, I walked past the TD's table and spotted a hard copy of the White Book. Had the TD invested a couple of ink cartridges in printing out the recently introduced 2010 White Book? No, of course not.

Actually I did precisely that... but at 470 pages of A4 it's much too bulky to carry around, so I've left it at the club and intend to rely on the online version on my iPhone.

[bluejak]

cardsharp, on Apr 14 2010, 05:35 PM, said:

Now that these publications are so valuable, I guess the editors, contributors and reviewers will all be looking for a significant increase in their financial compensation.

Best idea I have heard so far!

WellSpyder, on Apr 15 2010, 11:22 AM, said:

Being a member of an affiliated club makes you a member of the EBU, but if you want to play in congresses without being a member of an affiliated club then you need to join the EBU directly. (I have had to do this since the EBU has not allowed my club to affiliate.)

Same for my wife, the County Chairman of Merseyside & Cheshire BA and an EBU Panel TD.

jeremy69, on Apr 17 2010, 11:03 AM, said:

Maybe some thought needs to be given to what affiliated means. I think it means joining the organsation. If you don't then you don't get the benefits. You may want to characterise this as "revenge"  but as far as I'm aware any club that decided not to affiliate and changes it's mind now or in the future is only too welcome but it is a given that membership benefits are for members.

Of course that is true. But what is not a given is that everything the EBU does is a "membership benefit". The EBU has a responsibility to bridge in England, and, in my view, a responsibility to bridge in other countries as well. So decisions have to be made as to what parts of EBU business are membership business, and what parts are business as the National Bridge Organisation in England, and what parts are business as a constituent member of the European Bridge league and the World Bridge Federation.

[jeremy69]

Quote

Bluejak is still correct. At an EBU event yesterday, the TD came up to my partner to ask what a particular section of the Orange Book said, explaining that the version of Orange Book on his computer was not the most up-to-date one.

Later, I walked past the TD's table and spotted a hard copy of the White Book. Had the TD invested a couple of ink cartridges in printing out the recently introduced 2010 White Book? No, of course not. It was the 2006 version, that being the latest version which has been properly published in book format.

I was at an event recently where there was a problem involving the law. The director still had a copy of the 1997 Laws because he had marked them all up and had not had time to do the same (whatever that meant) for the 2007 book which was languishing at his home so it wasn't whether he had an online version or not. He was a touch unlucky it was something that had been changed from one version to the next.

As far as the OB is concerned whichever version he had the last printed one was in 2006 although there is a supplement updated each year thus far with the changes or you can download a whole updated one.
There is certainly an issue which needs addressing with a TD turning up for an event without the necessary documentation in whatever form.

Quote

Actually I did precisely that... but at 470 pages of A4 it's much too bulky to carry around,

Also worrying because my version is 225 pages of A4 which is quite long enough. Am I missing some?

[gordontd]

jeremy69, on Apr 19 2010, 03:50 PM, said:

There is certainly an issue which needs addressing with a TD turning up for an event without the necessary documentation in whatever form.

Since you had informed us that all EBU scoring computers had updated versions of both the Orange & White books, I think it's reasonable for a TD to expect to be able to use those.

Quote

Quote

Actually I did precisely that... but at 470 pages of A4 it's much too bulky to carry around,

Also worrying because my version is 225 pages of A4 which is quite long enough. Am I missing some?

I misremembered - my version goes up to page 477, but that's because I reformatted it to A5 thinking I could staple it into a book. Obviously far too thick for that, and even at only 239 pages of A4 too thick to go into a TD's pocket.

[jeremy69]

Quote

Since you had informed us that all EBU scoring computers had updated versions of both the Orange & White books, I think it's reasonable for a TD to expect to be able to use those.

I believed they had but judging from what you say this is not the case. I'll check by when this can be sorted out.

[jeremy69]

Quote

It has already been mentioned that in practice, non-affiliated clubs are not even looking at the White Book, hence they not obtaining any benefit for all practical purposes.

Happy to believe that few clubs affiliated or otherwise look at either the OB or WB on anything like a regular basis although if sometihng goes wrong it may be a port of call.

Quote

What you and the committee have done here is to define the White Book as a "benefit",

Not exactly. It will be the board not the L&E that decides but if you assume the board then Yes.

Quote

The English Bridge Union Limited (EBU) is a membership-funded organisation committed to promoting the game of duplicate bridge.

Yes. come and join the EBU (club or player). We believe we can provide a regulated, well run game and wish as many people as possible to have this good experience.
So some will scoff at this, others may wish to remain in the badlands rather than coming on board. The unregulated game will wither on the vine and all will be better off. It may, of course, not work exactly like that but promoting the game does not involve giving away the family silver, orange or white to all and sundry.

Quote

So I ask you, how is limiting a commentary on the laws of bridge to members only going to help your cause of promoting the game of duplicate bridge if non-members who have a casual interest to just see the laws can't even get to see a commentary which would help them in understanding?

See the laws anytime you want. Join the national organisation and have experts help with their interpretation.

Quote

And even so, how would a non-affiliated club looking at the White Book make the EBU poorer for it? Surely you are not going to tell me that the bandwidth from downloading the pdf file is going to net EBU a loss?

On the other hand, the cost of producing the White Book is already a sunk cost, and since the White Book is meant for better understanding of the laws, surely making it available to non-members can hardly cost anything.

It is not a matter of money or perhaps it would be clearer if I said IT'S NOT A MATTER OF MONEY

[campboy]

So it is for the good of the game if clubs which decide not to affiliate (or who are refused affiliation) "wither on the vine", is it? The sentiments expressed in that post disgust me. If we claim to be promoting bridge we need to nurture bridge clubs and bridge players (and potential bridge players), whether they are affiliated to the EBU or not. Obviously there is a limit to what the EBU can do in that regard without losing money, but when it costs nothing we should be (as they tell us on the TD course) happy to help.

[Vampyr]

Limiting access to the White Book is childish and disgusting, but access to the Orange book is essential for foreigners and future EBU members if they want to participate in a congress. The information contained therein is information that they need in advance. Someone please tell me that the geniuses on the EBU board are not considering cutting off access to the Orange Book.


Also... just wondering, if it is "not a matter of money" then what is the purpose of limiting access to those who are paying the EBU?

[jnichols]

Of course it's a matter of money. The entire Pay to Play concept would never have come about if it wasn't a matter of money. That is clear even from this side of the Atlantic.

[WellSpyder]

jnichols, on Apr 20 2010, 10:40 AM, said:

Of course it's a matter of money.  The entire Pay to Play concept would never have come about if it wasn't a matter of money.  That is clear even from this side of the Atlantic. 

Isn't this really just a question of perspective? The EBU is not in the business of trying to make money so in that sense the issue is not about money. But it does have an objective of supporting duplicate bridge in England and to do that it needs to survive! The previous model of funding the EBU was felt not to be viable in the long run - which presumably means that at some point it was going to find it did not have enough money to do what it felt it needed to do. Trying to sort out that non-viability is, of course, about money...

[Blue Uriah]

campboy, on Apr 20 2010, 01:06 AM, said:

Obviously there is a limit to what the EBU can do in that regard without losing money, but when it costs nothing we should be (as they tell us on the TD course) happy to help.

It sounds like you're arguing in favour of downloading free music, buying pirate DVDs or not paying your TV license. Once the content is produced, it costs nothing to make one additional copy so what harm can it do?

[jeremy69]

Quote

Limiting access to the White Book is childish and disgusting

Come on! Don't mince words. Tell us what you really think. I understand that you disagree with the idea and believe that anyone who does not agree with you, including me, deserves the above epithets(along with torture involving hot tongs) but I'm sure I've told you a million times not to exaggerate!

[jeremy69]

Quote

Of course it's a matter of money. The entire Pay to Play concept would never have come about if it wasn't a matter of money. That is clear even from this side of the Atlantic.

P2P came about as it was thought that the existing model of membership had ceased to work in an effective manner and was not sustainable. Clearly finance has something to do with this.

Publication of the White Book, Orange Book or any other book is not primarily a financial issue but I expect from a distance of 4000 miles or so you will have a better and more authoritative perspective.