[Barry]

Please can you help us with the following problem

Teams of Four. There were a total of six teams. EBU

In round one team 5 was playing team 3. Team 5 were playing E/W. The West player made a mistake recording the curtain card with the result the board could not be played at the next table by teams 2 and 1. What score do we give to teams 2 and 1 and what penalty is given to team 5?

[Vampyr]

I think that teams 1 and 2 should each get +3 IMPs. Team 5 should probably get something like -.5 VP.

I don't really understand the problem here, though. If West's (from team 1 or 2)curtain card was wrong, didn't he call the director? If he did, why could the problem not have been sorted before play began at that table? It seems that the only time there would be a difficulty is if West had written down someone else's entire hand. If this was not the case, then it seems that the problem must have involved West's bidding from the curtain card without looking at his hand. In this case his team should not get +3 IMPs, and should be fined .5 VP.

[mjj29]

Vampyr, on Jan 29 2010, 04:03 AM, said:

I think that teams 1 and 2 should each get +3 IMPs. Team 5 should probably get something like -.5 VP.

AV+/AV+ (which for teams of 4 is +3 IMPs) is certainly correct for 1 and 2. A standard PP (which is what would normally be issued in these circumstances) is 1/2 VP, however. 5 VPs is a little hash...

Note that for 1 and 2 this means that the number of VPs in their match can sum to more than 20 and, infact, it's possible for both teams to win the match.

[Vampyr]

mjj29, on Jan 29 2010, 10:20 AM, said:

A standard PP (which is what would normally be issued in these circumstances) is 1/2 VP, however. 5 VPs is a little hash...

Speaking of hash, .5 is really a lot closer to 1/2 than to 5. I think, but I am not sure because in the 1970's the trend was to teach "New Math", so...

[Chris3875]

OK I'll be the dummy WTH is a curtain card ?

[Vampyr]

Chris3875, on Jan 29 2010, 10:56 AM, said:

OK  I'll be the dummy    WTH is a curtain card ?

A curtain card is a very, very bad thing.

A curtain card is a little bit of card on which the hand is written (written in by the players if the cards are hand-dealt, printed if the cards are pre-dealt). I am not sure of their precise purpose, though when they are in use all players diligently check to make sure the cards in their hand match the cards written on the curtain-card.

Basically, a curtain card is an accident waiting to happen.

[mjj29]

Vampyr, on Jan 29 2010, 04:24 AM, said:

mjj29, on Jan 29 2010, 10:20 AM, said:

A standard PP (which is what would normally be issued in these circumstances) is 1/2 VP, however. 5 VPs is a little hash...

Speaking of hash, .5 is really a lot closer to 1/2 than to 5. I think, but I am not sure because in the 1970's the trend was to teach "New Math", so...

Ah, a typo and I can't read.

0.5 is indeed 1/2, I misread .5 as 5, however. I blame the small dot-pitch of my monitor

[jjbrr]

Vampyr, on Jan 29 2010, 05:09 AM, said:

Chris3875, on Jan 29 2010, 10:56 AM, said:

OK   I'll be the dummy     WTH is a curtain card ?

A curtain card is a very, very bad thing.

A curtain card is a little bit of card on which the hand is written (written in by the players if the cards are hand-dealt, printed if the cards are pre-dealt). I am not sure of their precise purpose, though when they are in use all players diligently check to make sure the cards in their hand match the cards written on the curtain-card.

Basically, a curtain card is an accident waiting to happen.

I'll also be the dummy.

How is it ever possible that the result of a mistake on the curtain card would be that the board "could not be played"?

[barmar]

As Vampyr suggested, the worst case scenario is writing down the wrong hand, e.g. writing down dummy's hand instead of your own. Then when the player at the next table is comparing his hand to the curtain card, he'll see an entire other hand. It looks like Law 16C2 is appropriate to that situation, and option (d) is probably the only acceptable solution.

If it's a lesser problem, like recording one or two cards wrong, I don't see how it would make the board unplayable. If only one player sees a discrepancy between his hand and the curtain card, it's obvious that the card is wrong. They should still call the director to have him confirm it, but then they should be able to play the hand as received.

[blackshoe]

If you write down your hand on the curtain card when you first pick it up (before the bidding starts, after it's dealt the first time), which as I understand it is when you're supposed to do it, I don't see how anyone could write down dummy, as there isn't one yet.

[mycroft]

Heh. Engineering training to the rescue again.

Apart from all the rest of the precision vs accuracy and rounding rules teachings we had in 1st year, we were told to always always have something to the left of the decimal point. .5 doesn't exist - because it gets read as 5 way too often. 0.5 is much less commonly mistaken.

(in the spirit, I also learned to write z-with-a-line vs 2, l-with-a-loop vs 1, and zero-dot vs o. I already had the slashed-7. I've now gone more european yet, and I don't have to worry about the l-with-a-loop, but people read my 1s for (non-slashed) 7s...)

[blackshoe]

I just tell people I was taught to write by my father (he was a cardiologist).

[bluejak]

I agree that curtain cards a waste of natural resources [trees] with no upside, and it is difficult to see a mistake with one that makes a board unplayable. But if so, why not just play a substitute board?

[Vampyr]

bluejak, on Jan 30 2010, 02:04 AM, said:

I agree that curtain cards a waste of natural resources [trees] with no upside, and it is difficult to see a mistake with one that makes a board unplayable.  But if so, why not just play a substitute board?

Perhaps it was point-a-board? Or maybe the board had been shared with the teammates of Teams 1 and 2 during the previous round?

It would be nice if the OP informed us how the error led to the board being unplayable, since it seems mysterious.

[NickRW]

People keep saying curtain cards are bad. I can't remember a time in real life - ever (and I really mean ever) - when they caused a problem. I can remember many times when someone managed to put 14 cards away in a board and this caused a problem at the next table and a curtain card did (or would had they been used) help the director reconstruct the hand quickly.

I just don't see it.

How does any idiot manage to write someone else's hand on their card - you fill in the card the first time it is played immediately after the deal and before you make any call - you can't even have seen anyone else's hand at that point!!!!!!!! If someone thinks they should do this chore after the hand has been played then they are obv. a complete beginner at duplicate or never come across curtain cards before and should be politely instructed by the other players - or the director if it is a room of newbies.

Nick

[Chris3875]

OK guys, bear in mind that I am a newbie - but we have pre-dealt boards and have hand records available (deep finessed to show the contract that COULD be made). If there is a problem with 12 cards in one pocket and 14 in another it is easily fixed. I have never even HEARD of curtain cards.

[blackshoe]

The original post either contains a suspect assumption ("as a result, the board could not be played") or leaves out pertinent information.

Was the director called when the problem with the curtain card was discovered? If so, what did the director do? If not, why not? What did West actually do? Were the other three curtain cards correct?

Absent clarification, I'm not going to speculate what the correct ruling might be.

[Vampyr]

NickRW, on Jan 30 2010, 03:04 PM, said:

I can remember many times when someone managed to put 14 cards away in a board and this caused a problem at the next table and a curtain card did (or would had they been used) help the director reconstruct the hand quickly.

Yes, but it is not that much more difficult to ask the person who held the hand at the previous table. It just seems that that advantage is not enough to compensate for the possibility of an accident.

And Chris, there are clubs which play without pre-dealt hands or hand records, even in 2010. In fact, from what I can tell, hand records are the exception in clubs in America! And so are Bridgemates!

[bluejak]

With curtain cards in an ordinary 9 table duplicate you get about ten or so extra completely useless time-wasting TD calls a night, and correcting hands without them has never been difficult and is much less trouble overall.

[NickRW]

bluejak, on Feb 2 2010, 10:21 PM, said:

With curtain cards in an ordinary 9 table duplicate you get about ten or so extra completely useless time-wasting TD calls a night, and correcting hands without them has never been difficult and is much less trouble overall.

You must direct a different species of human than I do David. Most nights they cause absolutely no call at all where I am.

Nick