[Little Kid]

Scoring: IMP

(Pass)-Pass-(Pass)-1♣
 (1♦)-  1♥-  (2♦)- Pass
(Pass)- ?

---

Your partner plays support doubles but not mandatory on any hand with 3♥s. Now, do you?

a ) Pass
b ) Bid 3♣
c ) Bid 2♥
d ) Double
If you double then: Partner bids 2♠, do you pass this or or bid 3♣?

[gwnn]

3♣, partner usually has 5 clubs

edit: not mandatory supoprt x's ok then I guess I x and 3♣.

[bluecalm]

Pass is not an option in my opinion.

I like dbl and 3♣ after 2♠ but I don't like playing non-mandatory support doubles. Playing mandatory ones I bid 3♣ here because the worst case is partner being 4-2-3-4 and I want to be in clubs opposite this hand. I also want to show club support in case he is 4-1-3-5 so he could compete to 4level with nice hand.

[dake50]

X. Then pass 2S as 3xS take D-ruffs.

[Hanoi5]

On these conditions X and 3♣. However I don't understand the concept of not mandatory support doubles...

[pooltuna]

Little Kid, on Apr 9 2010, 07:00 AM, said:

Scoring: IMP

(Pass)-Pass-(Pass)-1♣
 (1♦)-  1♥-  (2♦)- Pass
(Pass)- ?

---

Your partner plays support doubles but not mandatory on any hand with 3♥s. Now, do you?

a ) Pass
b ) Bid 3♣
c ) Bid 2♥
d ) Double
If you double then: Partner bids 2♠, do you pass this or or bid 3♣?

Support with support 3♣

[hrothgar]

Mark me down for double, followed by passing 2♠

I'd feel better about this if it were MP. However, even at IMPs I'm happy playing the Moysian when I can take ruffs in the short hand.

[mikeh]

while double is not penalty, it promises defence and partner is permitted to sit for it. We don't have any defence and we have undisclosed length in partner's suit...while he may be minimum 4=3=3=3, the odds are very high that he has at least 4 clubs. This strikes me as an easy 3♣ call.

[cherdanno]

mikeh, on Apr 9 2010, 08:54 AM, said:

while double is not penalty, it promises defence and partner is permitted to sit for it. We don't have any defence and we have undisclosed length in partner's suit...while he may be minimum 4=3=3=3, the odds are very high that he has at least 4 clubs. This strikes me as an easy 3♣ call.

Agree this looks clear to me, do we really want to suppress 4-card support when we have a singleton in their suit?

[fred]

Either I am out to lunch or a lot of the rest of you are!

I feel strongly that DBL with this hand is really bad. How can DBL possible gain?

When partner Passes the DBL? Good luck with that. You have a sub-minimum in terms of high cards, a singleton diamond, and unexpected length in the suit that partner bid. In other words, you have worse than the worst possible hand that your partner will expect for the purposes of defending 2D.

When partner bids 2H? He has already denied 3-card heart support so he will only bid 2H when he has a doubleton heart and, if he is 4234, he will bid 2S instead of 2H. So, if he ever bids 2H at all, he will only do so when he has 5+ clubs. So, you will want to go back to 3C over 2H. So, the DBL gains nothing in this case versus bidding 3C immediately. Also, the DBL could lose in this case if partner (reasonably) plays you for more high cards and less distirbution for DBL following by 3C.

When partner bids 2S or 2NT? Again, you are just going to bid 3C anyway so DBL gains nothing and could lose since DBL then 3C suggests a different sort of hand.

When partner bids 3C? Here it might not matter (but still DBL doesn't gain) if the auction is going to die in 3C regardless. But if partner actually has long clubs then it is a near certainty the opponents will compete to 3D. If (ie when) this happens, your side may want to compete to 4C. Your partner will be in a better position to make this decision if you make a bid that actually describes your hand (ie 3C).

So DBL (almost) never gains and could easily lose versus bidding 3C instead.

The thread suggests that the "always reopen with DBL disease" is spreading beyond the realm of 1X-P-P-?.

Fred Gitelman
Bridge Base Inc.
www.bridgebase.com

[bluecalm]

Quote

When partner bids 2H? He has already denied 3-card heart support so he will only bid 2H when he has a doubleton heart and, if he is 4234, he will bid 2S instead of 2H. So, if he ever bids 2H at all, he will only do so when he has 5+ clubs.

Fred, OP said that his treatment of support double didn't deny 3♥. This is why me and some others are tempted to double. Partner can have very probable 3-3-3-4 or 4-3-3-3 - exactly the shape he wouldn't double with playing non-mandatory support doubles.
From what I see in the answers people (me included) choose 3♣ assuming pass denied 3♥.
Does this consideration changes your mind or is it still obvious 3♣ for you ?

[Phil]

Easy 3♣. Once partner doesn't make a support double he is a lock for 4♣. And playing a 'sensible' style, if he has exactly four clubs, they have nine diamonds.

Re: those that double and pull anything to 3♣ - hasn't it been determined that this call is forcing? Wouldn't we make this call with Kxx AQxx, xx, Kxxx?

[fred]

bluecalm, on Apr 9 2010, 02:24 PM, said:

Quote

When partner bids 2H? He has already denied 3-card heart support so he will only bid 2H when he has a doubleton heart and, if he is 4234, he will bid 2S instead of 2H. So, if he ever bids 2H at all, he will only do so when he has 5+ clubs.

Fred, OP said that his treatment of support double didn't deny 3♥. This is why me and some others are tempted to double. Partner can have very probable 3-3-3-4 or 4-3-3-3 - exactly the shape he wouldn't double with playing non-mandatory support doubles.
From what I see in the answers people (me included) choose 3♣ assuming pass denied 3♥.
Does this consideration changes your mind or is it still obvious 3♣ for you ?

Sorry - I misread the original post.

I actually play non-mandatory support DBLs myself, but I have found in practice that it is quite rare not to make a support DBL when I have 3-card support. Of course this is largely a judgment/partnership issue.

Now DBL might actually gain, but it has a new way to lose as well. If partner might pull to 2H with a doubleton (perhaps the least of evils with some 3235ish hands) you won't know if you should Pass or not.

And it doesn't change my opinion that DBL is both an overbid (in terms of high cards) and a misbid (in terms of defensive expectation).

So I don't think DBL is quite as horrible anymore (because it is now possible that DBL will gain over bidding 3C), but I still think 3C is pretty clear.

Fred Gitelman
Bridge Base Inc.
www.bridgebase.com

[cherdanno]

bluecalm, on Apr 9 2010, 09:24 AM, said:

Quote

When partner bids 2H? He has already denied 3-card heart support so he will only bid 2H when he has a doubleton heart and, if he is 4234, he will bid 2S instead of 2H. So, if he ever bids 2H at all, he will only do so when he has 5+ clubs.

Fred, OP said that his treatment of support double didn't deny 3♥. This is why me and some others are tempted to double. Partner can have very probable 3-3-3-4 or 4-3-3-3 - exactly the shape he wouldn't double with playing non-mandatory support doubles.
From what I see in the answers people (me included) choose 3♣ assuming pass denied 3♥.
Does this consideration changes your mind or is it still obvious 3♣ for you ?

I would still bid 3♣ as you are only catering to two specific shapes.

However, I also question the wisdom of passing with 4333. I can understand not playing mandatory support doubles, but when you have only 3 cards in their suit AND opponents have a fit AND you can compete over their suit at the 2-level, then passing seems really bad. The time to pass with 3-card support would be when you a strong 4-card holding in their suit, say in the auction 1C 1H (1S) or 1D 1H (2C).

[jjbrr]

I would much rather ruff ♦ with anything besides my long ♥ if those were to end up as trumps via a double. Playing in a 3-3 ♠ fit is a real possibility as well.

I'll pay off to partner being some 4333 and bid 3♣

[dburn]

In my view, a hand that opens 1♣ in fourth chair ought not to be afraid to double with three-card heart support - if he were, he should have passed the hand out. If I double now, partner will pass on too many hands where we won't beat 2♦, and even if he does not, I am not going to try to land on a pinhead in 2♠. That leaves 3♣, so that is what I will bid.

[jdonn]

3♣ wtp? I thought this before reading any posts. Double shows a better hand, 2♥ begs to play opposite a singleton (with a 9 card club fit), but I refuse to fail to compete.

[Jlall]

If you X you def can't bid 3C over whatever, that shows a good hand to me (would be forcing if you were an UPH imo, and I think it's how you show an invite as a PH imo).

[dake50]

I am a passed hand, am I not?
Will partner expect 2+DT from a passed hand Cooperative Double? I have AQ !!!..!!

[jdonn]

dake50, on Apr 9 2010, 05:47 PM, said:

I am a passed hand, am I not?
Will partner expect 2+DT from a passed hand Cooperative Double? I have AQ !!!..!!

He won't expect a singleton trump and 4 card support for his suit!!!...!!!...!!!