[RMB1]

WellSpyder, on 2010-November-24, 04:30, said:

Suppose for a moment that the "either/or" nature of the hand created by such an implicit agreement is not a permitted agreement. Does that mean that every time you make such a bid that partner is liable to forget you are using an illegal agreement and the score should be adjusted accordingly?

Good question. So I have started a new topic.

An example would be 3♣ overcall showing the other two suits (Ghestem). If partner forgets, and you know partner forgets, the implicit agreement is clubs or the other two suits and that is not permitted in EBU (and would be Brown Sticker in WBF/EBL).

This is the sort of problem that lies behind the EBU's fielded misbid approach. So yes, you are liable to an artificial adjusted score (AVE-) each time this comes up. The best you can do is pretend that partner does not forget and bid accordingly, and hope partner has not forgotten this time. It is not helpful to disclose the implicit agreement.

If/when it becomes clear that partner has forgotten (again), then you should probably "fall on your sword". Explain the implicit agreement to the opponents (and to the TD), accept the adjustment to AVE-, and change the system to one partner will remember.

P.S. When we discuss this, it is always "partner" who forgets. Well I played Ghestem once and forgot (once). I avoided an artificial adjustment by avoiding using UI and raising partner's 3M response to 4M on a three card suit; thus ensuring a far worse score than average minus.

[gordontd]

RMB1, on 2010-November-24, 07:58, said:

Well I played Ghestem once and forgot (once). I avoided an artificial adjustment by avoiding using UI and raising partner's 3M response to 4M on a three card suit; thus ensuring a far worse score than average minus.

I remember playing CRO about twelve years ago, and forgot that the 2NT overcall doesn't show the lower unbid suits - in the case in point when they had opened 1♦ it showed the majors. I bid it holding hearts and clubs, and partner bid a swift 4♠. The opponents bid on to 6♦+1 for a cold bottom - everyone else was making 7NT. Even if they had doubled us in 4♠ they would have got a zero.

Their requests to the director got them nowhere, because we had two identically completed convention cards indicating that they had been correctly informed and my partner had clearly not fielded it. Ironically the loudest opposing player was the person with the most extensive record in the EBU of psyching - and he didn't help his cause by starting with "Director, I don't like the way you approach the table"!

[hrothgar]

gordontd, on 2010-November-24, 11:06, said:

I remember playing CRO about twelve years ago, and forgot that the 2NT overcall doesn't show the lower unbid suits - in the case in point when they had opened 1♦ it showed the majors. I bid it holding hearts and clubs, and partner bid a swift 4♠.

Very confused here:

When I learned RCO, it was a system of preempts in which

2♥ showed two suited with the same rank (majors or minors)
2♠ showed two suited with the same color (red or black)
2NT showed other (Round suits or Pointy suits)

I know that some people play arround with the order, creating CRO and the like...

Even so, I'm confused how both majors would be considered "other" rather than rank...

[gordontd]

hrothgar, on 2010-November-24, 11:32, said:

Very confused here:

When I learned RCO, it was a system of preempts in which

2♥ showed two suited with the same rank (majors or minors)
2♠ showed two suited with the same color (red or black)
2NT showed other (Round suits or Pointy suits)

I know that some people play arround with the order, creating CRO and the like...

Even so, I'm confused how both majors would be considered "other" rather than rank...

In the UK CRO is a system of two-suited overcalls where the cue-bid shows the same Colour, 2NT shows the same Rank, and 3C shows the Other two.

So, over a minor-suit opening 2NT shows the majors; over a major-suit opening 2NT shows the minors.

[bluejak]

RCO as often used in Australia and CRO as often used in England state the order of the two-suiters. But it appears, hrothgar, that you were playing RCO openings [I do find the way this forum puts in italics and bold annoying and one feature that is better on all other forums] which are illegal in England, while Gordon was playing CRO overcalls.

So over 1♦ 2NT would show clubs and spades in RCO [same colour] and hearts and spades in CRO [same rank].