Negative Response
#1
Posted 2011-February-09, 18:49
1. After an artificial 1♦ opening bid, can 1♥ be used as a negative response, similar to a 1♣-1♦ sequence?
2. After an artificial 1m opening, can a response be defined as "negative or natural", for instance after 1♣ can 1♦ be either negative or natural diamonds?
#2
Posted 2011-February-09, 19:34
2. In general, no, although 1♣-1♦ might be legal so defined, as long as it's forcing.
Caveat: Conventional (read "artificial") responses which guarantee game forcing or better values are legal, so long as they aren't the start of a sequence of relays (which is, basically, how the ACBL defines a "relay system").
As for tv, screw it. You aren't missing anything. -- Ken Berg
I have come to realise it is futile to expect or hope a regular club game will be run in accordance with the laws. -- Jillybean
#3
Posted 2011-February-09, 20:45
#4
Posted 2011-February-10, 12:37
I only mention that because I have a pair locally whose Precision club includes "6 AK controls" (which they often forget to mention), and they will open on 12s if the 12 are A, A, A - and that doesn't give them the "Responses and Rebids, 7" protection).
#5
Posted 2011-February-10, 15:13
As for tv, screw it. You aren't missing anything. -- Ken Berg
I have come to realise it is futile to expect or hope a regular club game will be run in accordance with the laws. -- Jillybean
#6
Posted 2011-February-11, 07:58
blackshoe, on 2011-February-10, 15:13, said:
why not? regulations and disclosure aside, they can play precision despite displaying an absurd lack of judgement if they like. in fact, when i'm playing with partners who have no judgement, i try to make them play precision to restrict their opportunities to perpetrate an absurdity.
#7
Posted 2011-February-11, 08:03
As for tv, screw it. You aren't missing anything. -- Ken Berg
I have come to realise it is futile to expect or hope a regular club game will be run in accordance with the laws. -- Jillybean
#8
Posted 2011-February-11, 08:13
blackshoe, on 2011-February-11, 08:03, said:
it's defined as strong. in principle 'strong' is whatever you consider it to mean. assume you're playing it as 16+, most people would still open a strong club on AKQJxx AJT xxx x because they judge it to be equivalent to a random 16 count. these people evidently consider AAA to be the equivalent of the random 14, 15, or 16 count they would normally require to open 1♣. you and i may consider that to be terrible judgement, but it doesn't mean they're not playing precision.
if they were playing a 14 point version, i wouldn't even be surprised to see people open that - aces are well known to be under-valued on the normal point scale.
perhaps you consider anything other than precision exactly as in CC Wei's book to be a different system, but that would be a rather perverse attitude. i'm sure you don't criticise people calling their system 2/1 because it's got a different version of jacoby to that specified in whoever wrote about the first book [hardy?]
#9
Posted 2011-February-11, 08:16
wank, on 2011-February-11, 08:13, said:
There is no book on Precision of which I'm aware which defines the 1♣ opening simply as "strong".
As for tv, screw it. You aren't missing anything. -- Ken Berg
I have come to realise it is futile to expect or hope a regular club game will be run in accordance with the laws. -- Jillybean
#10
Posted 2011-February-11, 08:22
blackshoe, on 2011-February-09, 19:34, said:
What are the requirements in the ACBL for a "relay system" to be legal?
#11
Posted 2011-February-11, 08:48
wank, on 2011-February-11, 08:13, said:
Not in England, I hope, since it is illegal to have an implicit agreement to open this hand with a strong 1♣. (Some regular readers will no doubt recall I have gone on about this before )
#12
Posted 2011-February-11, 09:32
Vampyr, on 2011-February-11, 08:22, said:
The GCC defines a "relay system" as a sequence of relay bids that after a one of a suit opening bid, starts before opener's rebid. Such systems are illegal on the GCC, legal on the Mid-Chart if they promise GF values, and legal on the Superchart so long as opener's first bid is not a forcing pass (forcing pass systems are banned at all levels in the ACBL).
As for tv, screw it. You aren't missing anything. -- Ken Berg
I have come to realise it is futile to expect or hope a regular club game will be run in accordance with the laws. -- Jillybean
#13
Posted 2011-February-11, 12:00
When does Acol stop being Acol - 5-card majors? All-strong NT? Promises-a-rebid 2/1s? Benji 2-bids? No? So, for Precision?
#14
Posted 2011-February-11, 14:30
Also, if these are legal, would they have to be forcing?
#15
Posted 2011-February-11, 19:05
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#16
Posted 2011-February-12, 01:44
mycroft, on 2011-February-11, 12:00, said:
When does Acol stop being Acol - 5-card majors? All-strong NT? Promises-a-rebid 2/1s? Benji 2-bids? No? So, for Precision?
My understanding is that there are bidding systems and there are families of bidding systems.
Acol is a family of bidding systems, the main ones being Benji and English Standard, but including other less popular systems as well.
The Strong Club family is a different family, containing several systems, of which Precision is one. The system that these people are playing is clearly in the strong club family, but that alone does not make it Precision. Blue Team Club, or even Moscito are also strong club systems. They are related, but to call them Precision would be misleading.
You encounter simmilar confusion over the Polish Club family of bidding systems. There is a range of systems that fall into this family, but some people restrict Polish Club to WJ (Polish Standard). This is another case of confusing the family of systems with a particular system. Not all Polish Club systems are WJ, and not all Strong Club systems are Precision.
#17
Posted 2011-February-12, 01:59
bluejak, on 2011-February-11, 19:05, said:
Don't see the reasoning here.
#18
Posted 2011-February-12, 05:47
mycroft, on 2011-February-11, 12:00, said:
I've heard players say they're playing Acol with a strong NT and five-card majors, but but I've never heard any Acol player say their 2/1s promise a rebid.
London UK
#19
Posted 2011-February-12, 05:58
gordontd, on 2011-February-12, 05:47, said:
Online players from far and wide (outside British Isles ) say they play "acol" but play strong NT and/or 5 card majors. I have wondered what bit of Acol they are refering to, but perhaps the only thing left is weak 2-over-1.
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