[Cromlyn]

As an Acol player I would like to be able to play SAYC. I have looked at the information on the topic on BBO and bought the pocket guide to SAYC. However, in practice I find it the following difficult:

1 What is forcing in SAYC?

2 How to handle no trump hands in the 12 to 14 point range? (Eg 1D: 2C: 2NT = 12 pts???)

3 How doubles are played?

4 In Acol an intervention at the three level would only be weak if it was bid two levels higher than
necessary - in SAYC is it the level rather than the jump that denotes the strength of the intervention?

5 4NT Response- In my SAYC book in says that 2NT: 4NT = is invitational (Acol uses this too and calls it the
Quantitative NT) but in practice I find that some SAYC players use this as Blackwood. As you do not
always have time to clarify everything in a pick-up game what do you presume the 4NT to be?

[wank]

beware that what people play on bbo and call sayc isn't official sayc. sayc has some very unusual elements to it, which most people don't use, for example, 1minor - 2NT is 13-15 balanced and GF. i would be shocked if more than 1 in 10 bbo sayc players knew that.

i've never bothered to read most of it so i don't know the official ACBL answers to your questions, except numbers 2 + 5.

yes, opener rebids NTs at minimum level or makes a simple raise of partner with a weak NT. you must consider that official sayc is normally only played by grannies who pass balanced 12 counts [the official booklet describes 13-15 as a minimum hand, despite 1NT openers being 15-17], so a NT rebid for them is more like 13-14.

4nt over a natural 2NT is quantitative in any system. the reason you see people showing how many aces they have is normally because they're not very good.

[helene_t]

The term SAYC is confusing because while it is in fact a very well-defined system, the term "SAYC" is most often, at least among players in the BBO main room, used for something like "5-card majors, strong notrump, and the rest you will have to guess".

So it is better if you call the system you are learning "5-card majors, strong notrump, popular American style" or some such. Then at least it's clear that it's a little vague and that partners/opponents should not assume anything specific but have to ask questions.

For a serious partnership it is probably better to agree on some kind of 2/1 textbook, rather than to filling in the gaps in the SAYC document yourselves.

To answer your specific questions:

1. After a response at the 1-level you are in Acol land, i.e. as Acol players would play if they played a 15-17 1NT opening. I.e. 1NT rebid is 12-14 and 1NT is 18-19. 3NT is a strong single-suited hand with guards in the unbid suits and typically a singleton in partner's suit. Other rebids are as in Acol, i.e. new suit is 16-21 if reverse, 18-21 if a jump and 11-17 otherwise. Or something like that. However it is not quite clear how we bid after opener's reverse (does it promise a third bid? In particular, is
1♣-1♠
2♦-2♠
forcing?). Also it is not quite clear what a raise of responder's 1NT response means:
1banana-1NT
2NT
could be played as 18-19 and almost forcing, or it could be played as 16-17. I think the official SAYC document says 18-19 but some will play it as 16-17.

After a 2-level response, responder must bid again so
1♦-2♣
2NT
is forcing. This begs the question how to stop in 2NT with 12+11 points and a misfit. Most SAYC-experts would say that opener has to rebid 2♦ with an mimimum, even if only having three diamonds! But my guess is that less than 2% of people who claim to play SAYC actually play it that way. Probably most either play the 2NT rebid as 12-13 non-forcing or just haven't thought about it, but several other options exist.

If there is interference, we are basically in Acol land, i.e.
1♠-(2♣)-2♦-(pass)
2♠
is probably not forcing, but I can't tell you exactly which rebids are forcing in such situations. You will have to bid on the assumption that partner may or may not take such rebids as forcing, and make agreements with partner if you are in a serious partnership.

2. See above

3. Due to the strong notrump, support doubles are more popular than they are among Acol players. And the upper limit of an overcall is higher for most Americans than for most Englishmen. So a t/o double followed by a bid in a suit is probably at least a decent 17 count and a somewhat flexible hand, while for most Acol players it could be just about any 16+ hand. Other than that, it is up to your partnership to discuss doubles. Personally I prefer to play that a double means "take-out unless it is clear that it would make no sense whatsoever to play t/o double in this situation", but needless to say I have had tons of misunderstandings related to this.

4. All jump overcalls are weak. But you will need to discuss jump freebids with partner. Strong jump freebids are probably less popular in North America than in the UK.

5. You have to discuss this with p, just as you would have to in an Acol partnership. A simple agreement is that 4NT is
if the last bid (not call) was made by opponents: take-out
if the last bid (not call) was made by partner and was in notrumps: quantitative
if the last bid (not call) was made by partner and was in a suit: RKC or Blackwood or whatever you play

Of course I am not claiming that this is what a pick-up partner would play, it is just a suggestion.

Hope this helps.

[the hog]

Why on earth do you want to play SAYC? Acol is a far better system. Oh well, I guess it is to play on line.

[Cromlyn]

Thank you Helene_t and Wank for your replies. They are very helpful and I will give SAYC or something like it a try. No doubt I will have other questions on this topic as I play this new system.

Thank you too Hog for taking the trouble to reply. And yes Hog you have got it in one! (Have you seen how often the Acol Room is empty? There are always players in the Main Room so I have got to get in there and give it a go!)

If anyone out there has anything to add which would help me avoid pitfalls please add to this post.