[kayin801]

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+200 is less than +600. Comments on who should bid the game or if it should be bid?

This is the second hand I've recently posted where we've had an A and a K and it's been considered 5-7 and we've "underbid" so I also wonder if there's anyone who plays strong club who considers that holding to be a GF.

[JLOGIC]

Xing to begin with is fine but once your partner makes a takeout X of 2H you must game force, your hand is extremely good now with a double fit, a stiff heart, well placed SK, etc. There is nothing wrong with Xing imo as long as you follow it up by bidding your hand appropriately later, that way partner knows the jist of your hand. I think you have an easy 4H bid over 3H. Look at your partner's hand, it was a pretty horrible min, and you missed a very good game. Also calling this a 50 % game is pretty lol, you have a lot of info to go off of and should be guessing this more than 50 % of the time.

[NickRW]

kayin801, on 2011-May-29, 14:14, said:

This is the second hand I've recently posted where we've had an A and a K and it's been considered 5-7 and we've "underbid" so I also wonder if there's anyone who plays strong club who considers that holding to be a GF.

7 hcp that includes 3 controls is bordering on GF opposite a bal 17 or unbal 16. A major fit will usually have play for game. A double minor fit, as here, is unusual, but gave play for the 5 level. Finally, if no fit, there may be play for 3N - a bal 17 opposite 7 with neither hand having a 5 card suit may be a bit too thin, but short of a complete misfit this is the worst case scenario.

[Phil]

I think I like 3♠ over 3♥.

North's hand has become a lot better.

[Free]

You have an Ace (in your 5 card suit), a King and 3 tens (one of them supported by your Ace). It's worth an upgrade imo, but Dbl is also acceptable. Like Justin I think you're definitely worth a GF after the Dbl from opener.

[mfa1010]

Phil, on 2011-May-29, 19:04, said:

I think I like 3♠ over 3♥.

North's hand has become a lot better.

Why 3♠ instead of 4♥? We have short hearts, max, A+K, and a flexible hand. 4♥ seems descriptive while 3♠ seems muddy.

[mfa1010]

A big problem also with north's bidding is that we might not beat 4♥. It's not like we are taking 'our sure plus' instead of trying for a marginal game. If we look at NS's assets only, then we are lucky that 4♥ fails. We clearly need three minor suit tricks. West could easily have had 5431, 5413, 5503, 5530 or 65, and then we would be -790. It is very speculative to double 4♥ with a stiff when partner just made a takeout double of that suit. For that reason alone should north compete to the 5-level.

[benlessard]

The X of 2H should even show a better hand than what south have. I would pass 2H with south hand, yes i have 5/4 in m and D tricks but my QS is wasted i have no hearts honnors cards over East, im balanced and im dead minimum.

[mfa1010]

benlessard, on 2011-May-30, 04:59, said:

The X of 2H should even show a better hand than what south have. I would pass 2H with south hand, yes i have 5/4 in m and D tricks but my QS is wasted i have no hearts honnors cards over East, im balanced and im dead minimum.

I'm in a different camp, because I agree with the double of 2♥. I don't know what expert consensus is in this sequence. But in my partnership the double would not imply anything extra - just the right shape. For us a pass of 2♥ would be nonforcing. Not that responder should love to pass it out, but with a dog like ♠Kxxx, ♥Jxx, ♦xxxx, ♣Qx he would pass. And I would hate to sell to 2♥ opposite such hands.

[Phil]

mfa1010, on 2011-May-30, 04:00, said:

Why 3♠ instead of 4♥? We have short hearts, max, A+K, and a flexible hand. 4♥ seems descriptive while 3♠ seems muddy.

Muddy? 3♠ is cheaper and shows a stopper. Its not difficult to come up with a hand where 3N might be superior to 5m.

[cherdano]

Phil, on 2011-May-30, 13:10, said:

Muddy? 3♠ is cheaper and shows a stopper. Its not difficult to come up with a hand where 3N might be superior to 5m.

Maybe we have different expectations for a takeout double forcing to the 3-level, but I do find it difficult.

[jogs]

I think the entire theory of bidding against interference after a strong 1C opening is wrong. Instead of bidding mostly by point count, bids should show shape or pattern first.
1C - (1S) - 2C. Show the clubs. 5+ HCP and no upper limit.
1C - (1S) - X. 5+ HCP; no upper limit. T/O is of spades.

Didn't like the second double either. What's wrong with 3D?

On your auction no one showed a suit until the 4 level. How can you know about the double minor suit fit when no one is willing to bid a suit?

[barmar]

Note also that if clubs are 3-1, they make 4♥. You'll go down in 5♣ unless you guess right, but it will still be a good sac.

[MrAce]

jogs, on 2011-May-30, 14:27, said:

On your auction no one showed a suit until the 4 level. How can you know about the double minor suit fit when no one is willing to bid a suit?

This is not a fair criticism, if you stop looking at opener's DBL as just another DBL but what it showed

[mfa1010]

jogs, on 2011-May-30, 14:27, said:

I think the entire theory of bidding against interference after a strong 1C opening is wrong. Instead of bidding mostly by point count, bids should show shape or pattern first.
1C - (1S) - 2C. Show the clubs. 5+ HCP and no upper limit.
1C - (1S) - X. 5+ HCP; no upper limit. T/O is of spades.

Yes, I see your point of getting suits in early. Maybe you are right. In pratice it just seems that a gameforcing resonse comes up very often, and that it really does make life so much easier. We can exchange suits without thinking about something being nonforcing. And we can deal easily we their preempts once we have gameforced. Perhaps an improvement to your suggestion is to play transfers, 5+. 1C - (1S) - 2C could be 5+ with diamonds. Opener's 2♦ could then be used either as a weak bid or as a strong bid as one likes.

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Didn't like the second double either. What's wrong with 3D?

I think suggesting both minors through a takeout double is more descriptive than bidding a 5-card suit.

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On your auction no one showed a suit until the 4 level. How can you know about the double minor suit fit when no one is willing to bid a suit?

South doubled for takeout after they bid ♠+♥. That suggests both minors, so north should expect a double fit.

[kayin801]

Thanks for the input all, I guess one area we have to work on is the notion of upgrading/downgrading with borderline GF hands.