[sasioc]

You hold

♠xx
♥ QJxx
♦ J9xx
♣ AJx

at first in, favourable. The auction starts

p 2♠ 4♦* p

to you.

4♦ = game forcing with 5+♥ and 5+♦

What do you think p needs to take another bid over 4♥? Shockingly not actually an ATB thread

[TylerE]

Pard needs a LOT to bid over 4♥. So much so that it's almost a "does not exist" bid.

[aguahombre]

To be content with game in Hearts or Diamonds, partner must have a holding where my red fillers are gravy. 5C instead of 4H seems routine; maybe pard will notice whether she also has two spade losers.

If, instead, she moves with 4S over my misbid of 4H, maybe I will wake up and bid a grand.

[TWO4BRIDGE]

5H .... asking for 6H with at least 2nd Rnd Ctrl in Sp

[aguahombre]

Since the black cues can deal with lack of control in the other black suit, I wonder if 5H should be some kind of gadget; but I don't know what kind.

[Phil]

Looking for 6 on strictly a spade control is very speculative. Something like x AKxxx AKQxx xx is a no play slam. I would much prefer to make a general invite with 4♠, but at the table I might just sign off.

[Free]

P needs close to a 2-loser hand to bid over 4♥ (something like x-AKxxx-AKQxx-KQ or x-AKxxxx-AKQxx-x is a minimum). That's pretty much what we need, so I'd just bid 4♥. Asking partner for a ♠ control is rather dangerous. I have too many ♦ and ♣ so it's possible that we can't get rid of a ♣ loser.

[Trinidad]

4♥. I expect to make one overtrick, not two.

Rik

[whereagles]

huh... if leaping michaels is really GF, it should have like 3 or 4 losers. I have 2 cover cards, so this is slam territory. I'll go with 5♣, trusting pard to bid a slam (or 5NT pick a slam) with 3 losers.

Of course, if pard tends to bid 4D with unsuitable hands, I guess I'd have to bid a mere 4H...

[TylerE]

There's a difference between "I have game in hand" and "I expect to make game a decent chunk of the time opposite partner's random 5 count".

[whereagles]

That's why I said 3-4 losers. 4 losers = 9 tricks = no game unless pard has some assorted non-junk.

[ArtK78]

I would bid 4♥. I might miss a slam; however, most of the hands that produce slam are hands where partner has enough to take another call over 4♥.

If you improve my hand by a red K, I would bid 5♣.

[Trinidad]

whereagles, on 2011-October-06, 03:56, said:

huh... if leaping michaels is really GF, it should have like 3 or 4 losers. I have 2 cover cards, so this is slam territory. I'll go with 5♣, trusting pard to bid a slam (or 5NT pick a slam) with 3 losers.

Of course, if pard tends to bid 4D with unsuitable hands, I guess I'd have to bid a mere 4H...

A leaping Micheals 4♦ call is about as game forcing as a jump overcall to 4♥. That is, game will make if partner has some help. I suppose that you don't start making slam invitations if partner jumps to 4♥ and you hold 2 cover cards.

I play leaping Michaels as 4-5 losers. In general, when defending against preempts, you should assume partner doesn't have a Yarborough. The flip side is that partner shouldn't get enthousiastic on every hand that is better than a Yarborough. It is easy to see the flaw in the reasoning "2 cover cards are 2 tricks. Partner has contracted for 10 tricks. Therefore, we should be in a slam." once you realise that partner is already counting on some cards from you.

Rik

[whereagles]

Rik, I know that. It's textbook stuff lol. Maybe I misinterpreted the original post. When it said "GF" I took it as "I more or less have game in hand", not as "I can make game opposite a couple of cards across". The 1st case is 3-4 losers. The 2nd is more like 4-5 losers. I took it as case 1 and acted accordingly. Taking it in a more loose sense, like in case 2, 4H is really the obvious bid.

(Mind you, I also play leaping michaels as 4-5 losers.)

[sasioc]

I don't know how many ways people play leaping michaels but in my partnership it does not promise game in one's own hand, just the expectation of making game facing an average hand from p. In saying gf I just wished to make it clear that I cannot pass it and thus a poster may take the view that if I bid 4H I have an unexpectedly good hand for p. Can anyone who would bid 4H describe what sort of hand they think p would need to take another bid?

[whereagles]

If 4H doesn't promise the world, since a normal hand has like 1-2 cover cards, a good hand would be like 3+ cover cards. By a passed hand this means 3 covers, since you can hardly have 4 and pass initially.

[the_dude]

4H for me.

Partner is playing you for some values. He is under the gun and it's incumbent on the guy with shape to stretch. You have more than the rule of 7 would imply, but not *that* much more.

And the doubleton spade is really bad. If we have two fast spade losers then we can have no red suit losers .. it's not inconceivable that the 5 level isn't safe. He would certainly bid 4D with xx AK10xx AKxxx x, and I would also bid it with xx AK10xx KQ10xx x (though I do not play LM as forcing).

[FrancesHinden]

I bid 4H. Partner needs a mountain to move over this.
By bidding 4H I will miss some slams, but if I do more I think I will go off at the 5-level more often than I reach a making slam that would otherwise be missed. J9xx diamonds is actually a pretty poor holding (OK, not as bad as J9x) but I'd rather have my pointed suits switched - then it's possibly a move.