[rbforster]

Does anyone play Bergen raises over 1♥ openers, but not over 1♠? It seems a little more complicated, but here are some reasons to consider it:

1. With the boss suit, you don't need to preempt your opponents, you can almost always just outbid them later. This only loses if they can compete to the 4 level or double you in 3♠, have it be right, and that they wouldn't have been able to do so over an immediate Bergen raise (rather than over a simple 2♠ and delayed 3♠ raise).

2. Starting with 1♠-2♠, especially with the constructive Bergen raise hand, allows for more accurate game tries.

3. Jump shifts of 1♥-3m are "free" (for Bergen or anything else) if you make use of the "Impossible 2♠" treatment to show both good and bad minor suit hands after starting with a forcing NT (i.e. 1♥-1N-2X-3m weaker, or 1♥-1N-2X-2♠-2N-3m stronger). Auctions starting with a forcing NT tend to be better for constructive bidding too, rather than jumping to 3m right away when you might have a doubleton heart and not know if partner has 6, etc.

4. Over 1♠, jump shifts of 1♠-3m are not "free". There is no equivalent of the Impossible 2♠ so there is need to separate good and bad hands with long minors into hands that bid 3m or hands that start 1N(f) and later bid 3m.

What do people think? Does anyone actually play Bergen only over hearts? Are there other reasons for or against this that I might be missing?

[TWO4BRIDGE]

.

[TWO4BRIDGE]

How do you show a limit raise w/ 4 cards Sp ( trump ) ?

[rbforster]

TWO4BRIDGE, on 2011-October-13, 07:21, said:

How do you show a limit raise w/ 4 cards Sp ( trump ) ?

Without Bergen, normally 3♠. There are other treatments of course, like using 2N as an inv+ raise (rather than GF Jacoby), and I guess the 1♠-3♥ jump might be available if you wanted to play 3♥ as the 4 card limit raise and 3♠ as purely preemptive. The idea of the poll thought was that you would play "Standard" over 1♠.

[MickyB]

Yeah I thought about this when I read Fred's Impossible 2♠ post. Seems reasonable, but as I play 1M:1N as to play opposite a weak NT it's not for me.

[aguahombre]

We carry it one step further, and don't use it over 1H either.

"I hate Bergen" was too strong, so couldn't find a check box in the poll. We just have found better (for us) uses for 3-level jumps, and Bergen took a back seat on the bus.

[rbforster]

aguahombre, on 2011-October-13, 09:31, said:

We just have found better (for us) uses for 3-level jumps, and Bergen took a back seat on the bus.

What is your preferred system for these jumps?

[aguahombre]

rbforster, on 2011-October-13, 09:54, said:

What is your preferred system for these jumps?

In a Forcing NT style, 3m can be natural and invitational (6 of m); or it can be natural and weak. The other one goes thru the forcing NT.

[blackshoe]

Hardy Raises:

1M-1NT-2m-2M: simple preference, two card support, or 3 card support and 10 losers
1M-1NT-2m-3M: "bad" limit raise: 3 trumps, no side shortage, 8 losers, 9+ to 12- HCP
1M-2m-2other-2M: 3 trumps, game forcing
1M-2M: simple raise, 5+ to 9- HCP, 3 or 4 trumps, 8 or 9 losers.
1M-2NT: GF raise, 4+ trumps, usually balanced, 12+ HCP
1M-3C: "good" limit raise: 3 trumps (as above) with a side shortage, or 4 trumps, no side shortage, otherwise as above (see "bad" limit raise)
1M-3under: "under jump shift" (the suit directly under the major), aka "GF limit raise". Limit raise values (9+-12- HCP) 4 trumps, side shortage.
1M-3M: preemptive raise, 4 trumps, 8 losers, 0-5- HCP.
1M-3over: "over jump shift" (the denomination directly over the major). Splinter raise, 12+-15- HCP (with more, use Jacoby 2NT), 4 trumps, side shortage. GF, significant slam interest, probably 6 losers or less.
1M-4C: inverted Trump Swiss, 12+-15- HCP, balanced hand, 4 trumps, two of the top three trump honors.
1M-4D: inverted Trump Swiss, 12+-15- HCP, balanced hand, 4 trumps, fewer than two of the top three trump honors.
1M-4M: weak, preemptive, 5+ trumps, 0-8 HCP, no side ace (with a side ace, start with a forcing NT, and then jump to 4M).

After the "good" limit raise and the under- and over-jump shifts, opener can relay to find out more about responder's hand.
Hardy suggested several different ways to implement game tries over the simple raise. Take your pick.

[aguahombre]

With 13 ways to show support for the major, we might suffer a bit when we don't have support.

[Vampyr]

MickyB, on 2011-October-13, 08:12, said:

Yeah I thought about this when I read Fred's Impossible 2♠ post. Seems reasonable, but as I play 1M:1N as to play opposite a weak NT it's not for me.

Indeed, I can't think of any convention good enough that I would adopt a forcing 1NT in order to play it.

[fromageGB]

Yes over both.

The consideration is not that you can outgun them in spades, but that by using Bergen 3♣ and 3♦ (but over 1♠ I actually use 3♦ and 3♥) you convey both length (4 cards) and strength (weaker/stronger according to taste) that you just can't do without these bids. It makes it easy for opener to decide what to do.

If you have to start with say 2♠ (your point 2) being either 3 or 4 card support, with a wide range of strengths, how is opener going to make more accurate game tries? Without convoluted multiple-bid methods they will be less accurate. And when opponents do bid a lower ranking suit at the 3 or 4 level, how is he or you (not knowing the other's hand) going to judge whether to bid on or double?

Bergen does have the disadvantages of losing a minor bid, but it gains in clarification of the major, which is probably more useful.

[chasetb]

I am in agreement with aguahombre in that I think Bergen is garbage and should never be used. What has surprised me is that a LOT of pairs in the upcoming Bermuda Bowl use Bergen or Reverse Bergen. Bergen makes no sense in a Precision context, and very little in 2/1, especially when using Forcing 1NT. Most good pairs aren't perturbed by Bergen, and you give a little room for a lead director or a sacrificer. Just bidding 2M works for me. I do like a 'Modified Bergen', and this is what I play in my Precision Club partnership:

1♥-2♠ / 1♠-2NT = Jacoby 2NT, promises 15+
1♥-2NT / 1♠-3♣ = 10-15 HCP, 4+ trump. We put 12-15 splinters in here as well.
1♥-2m / 1♠-3 Red = 9-12, 6+ cards, should have 2-card support or a rebiddable suit.
1M-3M = Mixed Raise, usually has shortness

We have defined our sequences over 1♥-1♠ so -2♠ isn't needed for invite hands. We also use the Ambra (Garozzo's 2/1 for the Italian Junior team a few years ago) treatment over 1♠-2♣ so the invite hands with Clubs go in there as well.

[aguahombre]

chasetb, on 2011-October-14, 11:40, said:

I am in agreement with aguahombre in that I think Bergen is garbage and should never be used.

Never said that, and specifically avoided intimating it. It just doesn't happen to be my choice.

[gwnn]

By the way, what do people think about 1H-p-3m*-X as a 2S overcall? Just an idea that I had now. Probably not original. with a tox you pass first, and length in spades is more interesting than strength in some minor (very simplified reasoning)

[chasetb]

aguahombre, on 2011-October-14, 11:52, said:

Never said that, and specifically avoided intimating it. It just doesn't happen to be my choice.

You are right, I went back and re-read what you typed. I must have been asleep at the wheel for the minute I read your post the first time. We do agree however that neither of us like to play it- while you think it's not as useful, I happen to have a hatred for it (and think it's not useful period).

gwnn, on 2011-October-14, 11:58, said:

By the way, what do people think about 1H-p-3m*-X as a 2S overcall? Just an idea that I had now. Probably not original. with a tox you pass first, and length in spades is more interesting than strength in some minor (very simplified reasoning)

I'm assuming that 3m is referring to the Bergen raises. That's not too bad, I'd be interested in using it.