[shevek]

1NT (no) 2♦ (2♠)
X

2♦ usual transfer.

Is double penalty? If not, does it show 3 hearts? Max?
If 3 hearts, what spade holding?

If the overcall is 3m, is double the same?

Thx

[barmar]

I think it's penalty oriented. I'd expect him to have 4 spades and 2 hearts.

With heart support, he bids 3♥; it's not a superaccept because it's not a jump.

[ArtK78]

If penalty oriented means "Partner if you pull this you will die 100 deaths" then yes, this double is penalty oriented.

Just kidding. The double is clearly for penalty. Pard is expected to pass unless he has very long hearts or other very strong distribution which would more than suggest that defending 2♠x is not a good idea.

[ggwhiz]

ArtK78, on 2011-October-16, 20:59, said:

If penalty oriented means "Partner if you pull this you will die 100 deaths"

I add a zero to that.

[Cyberyeti]

Is this the best use ? (I agree this is what it is without discussion) How often do you hold QJ109x and 3 aces which is what you're going to need opposite partner's 2533 yarborough that he could hold.

Certainly playing a weak no trump as I do, it's well nigh impossible to hold a real penalty double here, so you can play that X is one of several fitting heart hands.

[JLOGIC]

Penalty. I agree that it is infrequent. But why is showing 3 hearts and a max important? You can just bid 3H. If you want ways to distinguish between 4 card and 3 card bids, you have 2N available and 3H available. I guess with a 22(45) you might want to double to compete. Maybe that is the best approach (aka, a takeout double), but you still have no fit and a 1N opener, and a partner who is still in the game to bid. It would be a super modern way to play but I wouldn't hate it, but I would hate playing it as showing a fit since with a fit I would just bid something.

[JLOGIC]

Cyberyeti, on 2011-October-17, 00:59, said:

Certainly playing a weak no trump as I do, it's well nigh impossible to hold a real penalty double here, so you can play that X is one of several fitting heart hands.

My partner doubled playing 10-12 NT in the auction 1N p 2H 2S once. He had KQJ98 of spades and an ace. A bit of a shot, but I am probably marked with some values as the first guy didn't X 1N and 2S is NF. I had a couple of tricks and we beat it 2.

#notalamfordstory.

Again, I don't see why a weak NT would be worried about bidding almost ever anyways, without 4 trumps it's unlikely his hand is good enough to compete to the 3 level, and if it was he could just bid... why would he need X to show a fit?

[Cyberyeti]

JLOGIC, on 2011-October-17, 01:11, said:

My partner doubled playing 10-12 NT in the auction 1N p 2H 2S once. He had KQJ98 of spades and an ace. A bit of a shot, but I am probably marked with some values as the first guy didn't X 1N and 2S is NF. I had a couple of tricks and we beat it 2.

#notalamfordstory.

Again, I don't see why a weak NT would be worried about bidding almost ever anyways, without 4 trumps it's unlikely his hand is good enough to compete to the 3 level, and if it was he could just bid... why would he need X to show a fit?

Why he would want to distinguish between hands with 4 card support (which will still break the transfer as normal, we use all bids 2N-3♥ as different breaks) and a nice hand with 3 is for the hand where partner might have wanted to make a game invite over 1N-2♦-2♥ but can't over 1N-P-2♦-2♠-P-3♠, he now doesn't have to guess.

[Zelandakh]

I actually prefer this double to be optional, that is willing to compete to 3H but happy to defend 2S if partner has something suitable. I think this is more frequent than a pure penalty double and safer should partner actually hold the 6 hearts and out minimum.

[whereagles]

In my book this is take-out, by meta rules. E.g. something like

Qxx
Kx
AKxx
KQxx

Not playing my book I'd use the other meta rule that is "undiscussed bids are natural", i.e. penalty in this case.

[kenrexford]

As this is a sequence that occurs fairly frequently, and as it also is one that has some risk if LHO advances to 3♠, a fairly decent all-purpose approach might be:

X = One or both minors, competitive. Partner bids 2NT with diamond preference, 3♣ with club preference, and Opener then places the contract.
2NT = 3-card power raise
3♣ = 4-card power raise
3♦ = 4-card minimal raise without spade card
3♥ = 4-card minimal raise with spade card

An alternative including penalty double:

X = Penalty
2NT = Both minors or just diamonds
3♣ = Clubs
3♦ = Power raise
3♥ = Competitive raise

The latter has less in the way of fine-tuning the heart raises, and it loses on some leads, but it also allows showing all minor holdings.

The ability to right-side heart contracts seems important, but perhaps some flex is good too.

One might add into the 2NT call in the penalty-double structure a purely competitive heart raise, such that 3♦ and 3♥ each show different bumper heart raises? Might be dangerous, though.

[JLOGIC]

Zelandakh, on 2011-October-17, 03:57, said:

I actually prefer this double to be optional, that is willing to compete to 3H but happy to defend 2S if partner has something suitable. I think this is more frequent than a pure penalty double and safer should partner actually hold the 6 hearts and out minimum.

This makes a lot of sense.

[rduran1216]

JLOGIC, on 2011-October-17, 01:11, said:

#notalamfordstory.

hahahahahaha

My poor son was having a nice time sleeping in a swing, then I busted up laughing and woke him up, thanks Justin