[dickiegera]

Partner opens 1 NT and you hold 4 in Major and 6 in a minor.
3 part question

#1 0-7+ I guess a case could be made for Pass or transfer to minor depending where pts are.

#2 8-14 pts I guess that you should stayman and then bid 3NT if no major fit is found.

#3 15+ pts Transfer to minor then bid your Major? or Stayman and bid your minor?
I always thought that if I transfered to minor then bid I would be showing
splinter and looking for slam.

Question:
1NT - 2♠ [trans ♣]
2NT [Super acceptance] 3♥
Is this best as a splinter for ♣ or showing a 4-6 hand. 4 Hearts and 6 Clubs

Comments on all

[Zelandakh]

I think Case 3 depends on suit quality alot. There is an old rule not to introduce bad suits in slam auctions so if the 6 card suit is good it is often simpler just to ignore the major.

There is no expert consensus on whether to show suits or shortage after a minor-suit transfer. Both have their advantages and adherents. I think the case for it showing a second suit is probably lower after a super-accept though.

[P_Marlowe]

Hi,

without any special agreements, I would assume that Stayman followed by
bidding 3 of a minor, showes gf values and a 54 shape, which comes close
to gf values and a 64 shape.

So I would say, that depending on your decision, you should follow this route,
in case of #2 and #3.

Regarding your final question - shortage should come up more often in this
kind of sequence, so from a frequency point of view playing 3H as shortage
is most likely better, ... and if you are interested in finding a 4-4 in the
major, why did you not start with Stayman?

With kind regards
Marlowe

[Vampyr]

By the way, you are playing your superaccepts the wrong way round.

[Phil]

1. When you have a weak hand with any six card suit, transfer to it. I'm hard pressed to think of an exception. When you have a 4-6, that is an even more compelling reason to transfer.

2. When you have a GF, the customary way to bid the hand is to Stayman, and then bid your side suit if partner doesn't hit your major. Nominally this shows 4-5, but it will help you avoid a bad 3N, when partner has weakness in the 4th suit.

3. With a very good hand, I would still bid the hand the same way, but I would go past 3N.

By the way, the standard way to play 3M after a minor suit transfer is that it shows shortness. You can play it as a 2nd suit, sure. I know of one pair that plays 3M to show four of the other major, which helps right-side the contract. They also play 1N - 2♣ - 2M - 3m as invitational, since this isn't needed as GF.

[JLOGIC]

Phil nailed it...I'll just say that I only know that "standard" for transfer to a minor then bid is shortness is standard in USA. I know Frances plays it as showing a side suit...personally I have never even seen that treatment here, it is definitely a strong minority.

[Fluffy]

transfer + major = shortness is standard here, and I think France and Portugal as well.

transfer to clubs then 3♦ has no standard I think.

[Phil]

 Fluffy, on 2011-November-23, 16:03, said:

transfer + major = shortness is standard here, and I think France and Portugal as well.

transfer to clubs then 3♦ has no standard I think.

I started to type and deleted that 1N - 2♠ - 2N/3♣ - 3♦ could be a transfer to hearts, 3♥ = spades, and 3♠ = unknown shortness. Or some scheme like this.

I couldn't make 1N - 2N work however .

[Zelandakh]

 Phil, on 2011-November-23, 17:40, said:

I started to type and deleted that 1N - 2♠ - 2N/3♣ - 3♦ could be a transfer to hearts, 3♥ = spades, and 3♠ = unknown shortness. Or some scheme like this.

I couldn't make 1N - 2N work however .

After 1N - 2S; 2NT/3C, I play: 3D = clubs with hearts, 3H = clubs with spades, 3S = 5-5 minors in a (Puppet) scheme that does not have 2C followed by showing clubs available for these hands. One-suited hands with clubs and slam interest simply start 1NT - 3C. It would be possible to add a shortage ask after this if desired although I have not bothered with it.

Reading between the lines of this thread, it seems to me that the standard US style seems to be that a minor-suit transfer is only made on a 1-suiter. I find this quite interesting as one of the strengths of transfers is usually that they handle 2-suited hands so efficiently. One quite reasonable option might be to play my structure above (transfer with 2 suits, bid the minor with a 1-suiter) and to play Stayman followed by a minor as invitational. I have no idea how this would play in practise but it is certainly true that if you are willing to give up on the shortage-showing rebids (or to live with 1NT - 3m; 3m+1 as a shortage ask) you have a ton more bidding space for other hand types.

[gwnn]

Stayman then bid a minor is either 4-5 or better with slam interest or 4-6 or better looking for a game. Of course these two cases are not very different, it's just that with a 4-5 and 10-11 ish points you're fine just bidding 3N (pard will usually have you covered and if he doesn't, you still need a lot to make 5m if you have only 5).

[kgr]

 Phil, on 2011-November-23, 15:32, said:

1. When you have a weak hand with any six card suit, transfer to it. I'm hard pressed to think of an exception. When you have a 4-6, that is an even more compelling reason to transfer.

xxx=xxxx=xxxxx=x
..or maybe even??: xx=xxxx=xxxxx=xx
Stayman and pass partners bid?

[gwnn]

Those hands have no 6-card suits, so Phil's rule does not apply to them.

Simple analogy:

If I say "all trains have wheels." and you wanted to prove I was wrong, you shouldn't say "but my unicycle also has a wheel!" You should say "Maglev has no wheels!".

[whereagles]

 dickiegera, on 2011-November-23, 11:18, said:

Partner opens 1 NT and you hold 4 in Major and 6 in a minor.
3 part question

#1 0-7+ I guess a case could be made for Pass or transfer to minor depending where pts are.

#2 8-14 pts I guess that you should stayman and then bid 3NT if no major fit is found.

#3 15+ pts Transfer to minor then bid your Major? or Stayman and bid your minor?
I always thought that if I transfered to minor then bid I would be showing
splinter and looking for slam.

Question:
1NT - 2♠ [trans ♣]
2NT [Super acceptance] 3♥
Is this best as a splinter for ♣ or showing a 4-6 hand. 4 Hearts and 6 Clubs

Comments on all

The canonical way to bid a 4M-5+m is Stayman + follow up with

- 2NT if in the invitational zone or
- 3m if in the GF zone. You can skip showing the minor if you're 5422 with no slam interest, in which case you can bid 3NT.

As to your questions:

#1: usually you transfer, yes.
#2: not always. See above.
#3: transfer to minor and bid a major usually shows a stopper and singleton in the other major. You can play it as splinter too.

[kgr]

 gwnn, on 2011-November-24, 15:30, said:

Those hands have no 6-card suits, so Phil's rule does not apply to them.

Simple analogy:

If I say "all trains have wheels." and you wanted to prove I was wrong, you shouldn't say "but my unicycle also has a wheel!" You should say "Maglev has no wheels!".

You are right. I didn't realise that my hands didn't contain a 6-card
Then: xx=xxxx=xxxxxx=x
maybe (probably not) it is better to start with 2♣ and pass the response.
(Some time ago there was a reference on the forums to a site with an analysis when 2♣ is better then pass/transfer and it did have some surprising results for weak stayman. I wonder if this could be one of them)

[Free]

With a weak hand and 4M-6m, I'd only stayman in the following cases:
- 6♦ and 4-3M (planning to pass the response)
- 6♦, 4♥, less than 3♠ (planning to pass 2♦/2♥ response / planning to rebid 3♣ as a puppet to 3♦ if partner bids 2♠ - but this is not standard)
Otherwise, always transfer the minor. I think the chance is small you'll find a fit anyway, especially when opps don't intervene (if we have a fit M, then it's highly likely one of our opponents has a 6 card OM).

[Wackojack]

 Vampyr, on 2011-November-23, 14:07, said:

By the way, you are playing your superaccepts the wrong way round.

I assume you superaccept with step 2, (Qxx or better?). Could you give chapter and verse on why this is better than superaccept with step 1?

[Zelandakh]

 Wackojack, on 2011-November-25, 12:23, said:

I assume you superaccept with step 2, (Qxx or better?). Could you give chapter and verse on why this is better than superaccept with step 1?

I realise your question was rhetorical but, for those that like to bundle extra stuff into their minor-suit transfers, you can include a weak hand and both minors into 1NT - 2NT (along with your diamond transfer)and use 1NT - 2S as your 2NT invite as well as the club transfer. The disadvntage of this method is that in the first case the 3D call stops being a pure super-accept but rather fit-showing, and in the second case the 3C bid simply shows a maximum rather than a super-accept. In terms of pure super-accepts, without this bundling, I do not know of any theoretical advantage of playing 3m as the super-accept rather than the other way around.

[Raff90]

My partner and me play it as cuebids and not shortness and neither suit.
Cuebidding on the 3lvl is pretty good in case you still want to play 3NT if partner is missing a cuebid.