[Cthulhu D]

 mycroft, on 2012-January-06, 10:55, said:

My non-Euclidean Freind: the issue is the comment I made off the "top" of the "what's 2♦" sequence.

Where Jilly plays (and where I TD), there may in fact be a million different ways to play 2♦, but if it is not "natural and preemptive", *it requires an Alert*. If there's no Alert, they've already told you it's weak. If you ask anyway... Better yet, if you ask and pass...

I do realize that Australia's different.

Yeah, I misread the description off the issue completely and only figured it out later, whoops.

[Vampyr]

 blackshoe, on 2012-January-06, 23:01, said:

No, I don't think he's damned if he does, and damned if he doesn't. I think it depends on the bid, the form of the question, and the experience of the questioner. BTW, the Stop Card pause is intended to mitigate UI from tempo breaks, not from questions.

Please read more carefully before commenting. The point here was that if the player does not know what the bid means, then he cannot be considered to be studying his hand and deciding what to do.

[jillybean]

 blackshoe, on 2012-January-06, 23:05, said:

I agree with this. Not only will you be protected, you can feel good about yourself. The folks who ignore the regulation shouldn't (although they probably don't think about it anyway).

Some years ago, I used the stop card religiously. After the umpteenth time my LHO just ignored it, I decided using it was pointless, so I quit. Now, having read the regulation more closely and realizing that using it is not optional, I use it. LHOs still ignore it. T'Hell with 'em. I'm doing it right.

This is perhaps when I stopped using the stop card...

 blackshoe, on 2009-March-30, 00:37, said:

We in the ACBL have a choice — use the stop card or don't use it. Since in my experience LHO ignores his responsibility to pause for ten seconds (or worse, clearly indicates that he's "pausing" only because the rules require it), I've stopped using the card.

The worst part is that, at least at the clubs around here, I do not expect a TD to ever do anything about any use of UI that may occur after a fast call over a skip bid.

There was plenty of interesting discussion in this thread.

 Trinidad, on 2009-March-31, 16:39, said:

I suppose that question is as rhetorical as mine.

Nevertheless, I would rather throw the STOP procedure out of the window then force people who actually follow the rules and use the STOP card (ok, one time too many) to make a ridiculous bid.

My ideal would be that players just routinely pause at bidding occasions where they could easily have a bidding problem. Usually, that would be after a jump bid, but there are plenty of non jump bid situations where you can expect tempo problems.

But practice is that many players don't even pause after a STOP card has been pulled out.

Rik

[jillybean]

 Vampyr, on 2012-January-07, 05:36, said:

Please read more carefully before commenting. The point here was that if the player does not know what the bid means, then he cannot be considered to be studying his hand and deciding what to do.

This is just smoke in mirrors. Given the players experience, the setting and the question, "Is that weak?" they knew damn well what it was.

[Vampyr]

 jillybean, on 2012-January-07, 09:56, said:

This is just smoke and (LOL) mirrors. Given the players experience, the setting and the question, "Is that weak?" they knew damn well what it was.

I am referring here to the general case. It may or may not apply to the case in the OP; I have no way of knowing this.

[blackshoe]

Not to necro the thread, but I missed this on the first go-round.

 barmar, on 2011-December-18, 21:34, said:

Cue bids and control bids aren't alerted in ACBL.

 Cascade, on 2011-December-18, 22:02, said:

I wouldnt have known that for sure from just looking at the alert charts and procedures.

Neither would I. In fact, since the alert chart and alert procedure do not say anything at all specific about control bids, while the alert definitions make it clear that a control bid is not a cue bid, and control bids are certainly artificial, I would say that control bids do require an alert. Having said that, I do agree that they aren't alerted - iow that no one does so.

[mgoetze]

With regard to the original case in the thread, I have found that just before the final pass is actually one of the most common times to ask about the auction...














...when playing with screens, that is.

[CSGibson]

 jillybean, on 2012-January-06, 23:17, said:

If you can't bid/play like the experts then perhaps the best you can do is imitate their mannerisms

That's actually good advice, in my opinion. For example, I kibitzed some high level players, and noticed that quite a few would sort their hand by suit, but not by rank, so I started to do so also. Beyond helping against the occasional person who looks as you draw your card, it also has the effect of slowing me down a bit as I choose which spot card to play. Another mannerism I'm trying to adopt, rotating a card to the front of the hand and pausing before playing it, would also work as a buffer to slow me down, and it's a mannerism I first saw when kibitzing.

[jillybean]

 CSGibson, on 2012-January-23, 19:27, said:

That's actually good advice, in my opinion. For example, I kibitzed some high level players, and noticed that quite a few would sort their hand by suit, but not by rank, so I started to do so also. Beyond helping against the occasional person who looks as you draw your card, it also has the effect of slowing me down a bit as I choose which spot card to play. Another mannerism I'm trying to adopt, rotating a card to the front of the hand and pausing before playing it, would also work as a buffer to slow me down, and it's a mannerism I first saw when kibitzing.

I've also seen players rotate a card to the front of the deck then either put it back or rotate anoter card to the front. I am not sure which, perhaps both.
Smart move to force one to slow down and consider options but I would think that this could create UI ?

Also the habit of folding the cards up and then re-fanning them. I assume this eliminates any gaps in the deck which will prevent alert opps from detecting
how many cards are left in a suit.

[aguahombre]

I suspect the moving of the card to the top of the pack just means that is what they are going to lead, and are double checking --- for us it would remind us what we wanted to lead when we are finished confusing ourselves.

I suspect the closing and fanning of the cards is just a nervous habit significant of nothing. But, my cards are beneath table level during play, anyway; so nothing I do is really discernable.

[barmar]

I suspect all these things are just nervous habits. Rotating a card to the front is just part of their thinking process -- I've mostly noticed it when they're in the tank trying to decide what to play.

[mycroft]

A trick I learned from some expert I was kibitzing or other - sometimes, if there's a card I need to remember must be treated especially - say the trump 4 which I may need to lead to the trump 5, but I might use it to ruff if I'm not paying attention, or "this card isn't high, even though I might forget" - I move it to an odd place in the hand so it doesn't come out automatically.