[jillybean]

1♥:2N
3x*:3x* any forcing bids

4♠ is kickback, so we have to use 5♠ as exclusion here? How do you unravel this?

[Phil]

4N should be EKB for spades, assuming its a jump.

Don't try this at home, or with a partner prone to forgetting agreements.

[jillybean]

Phil, on 2012-January-03, 17:14, said:

4N should be EKB for spades, assuming its a jump.

Don't try this at home, or with a partner prone to forgetting agreements.

Great, thanks Phil. If either of us forgets it will be me.

[rogerclee]

All BI players should take kickback off their convention cards. Just saying.

[jillybean]

rogerclee, on 2012-January-03, 21:28, said:

All BI players should take kickback off their convention cards. Just saying.

I love it, why drop it?
I only play KB with my main partner, or pickups who already play it. My partner and I have spent a lot of time going over the sequences.

[rogerclee]

I don't know about you personally but I have talked to so many BI players who

1) always want a bid to be kickback even if it's ridiculous to be that (eg: 4H P 4S)
2) waste a lot of energy thinking about whether a bid is kickback instead of thinking about how many tricks they can take on the hand
3) waste a lot of energy when their partner bids 4N, thinking if they just forgot they play kickback (and for a BI partner, it makes it worse that the answer is "probably")
3) actually forget a bid is kickback

I don't get it, it is just not that important. The above does not only apply to only BI players either, heh. I suspect kickback loses imps/matchpoints for the average partnership that plays it.

[jillybean]

I know I've been guilty of 1), and likely 2), 3) and 3) as well. But I think I have it sorted out now.

[Mbodell]

I think the real question is what leads to more mistakes kickback or exclusion? I imagine most BI partnerships (and many others) would do better to play neither.

Kickback comes up more often, so I guess it is more costly in practice. I see pairs mess up simple auctions all the time, let alone complicated ones.

How would you play:

1♦-1♥
2♣-2♠
3♦-3♠
4♥

or

2♣-2♦
3♦-3♥
3♠-4♣
4♥

to name two different auctions I've seen opponents mess up.

[Phil]

jillybean, on 2012-January-04, 00:23, said:

I know I've been guilty of 1), and likely 2), 3) and 3) as well. But I think I have it sorted out now.

Its not just up-and-comers that forget kickback. Here is a true story from Saturday.

Its a 2 session sectional. You play the 1st day and your 65% over two sessions just gets edged out for 1st.

Your partner and his GF come over for drinks that night and shoot the sh*t and you are a little hungover the next AM. You have some tough hands in the morning but you still score 62% and are sitting in 4th. Its a very random field, but you still want to do well.

The 2nd session starts off well - you have a small lunch, chug some coffee. You and partner make some good doubles and some sharp competitive decisions, and you have a lot of "++", "+" and "+/=" on the estimated score portion of your card.

In the 4th round, the auction goes,

1♦ - 1♥
3♥ - 4N

Oh well, he's forgotten kickback, not a big deal. We get to a routine 6♥. He works hard on the play and wraps 7. (WDP!). Yet, there is a chink in the armor at this point. We survived a potential disaster.

In round 5, I had the lead problem against the leaders (Mark Itabashi and Mike Savage) with xx T97x xx A98xx and chose the ♥T. Mike makes 11 tricks while the field is beating 3N. Tough luck I think. Yet, it wears on me a little.

In round 6, he kicks a trick in the endgame. Not a problem, it can happen to anyone, I think. I give him my standard, "sorry, I can help you more on defense (which I should btw, but he'd figure it out 6 days out of 7)".

So we are a little bruised coming into Round 7 and I pick up ♠Qxx ♥Axx ♦KQJxx ♣Kx. 1♥ by him, a w/r 2♠ on my right (bastards!). So I bid 4♦ (not perfect but reasonable). The moron on my right (who miscounted his 19 the board before and opened 1N) asks about the alert and partner says "splinter". Well, maybe we can survive another. Partner now bids "4♠".....

Now, if you've never been in this situation before, then I envy you. I can sense my blood pressure rising. The kickback disaster an hour ago that really wasn't comes back. The mistaken alert that he's just given is VERY fresh. The two boards that we've given back have taxed me. With this partner, 4♠ cannot be EKB, but it can easily be a cuebid. This is exactly how he would bid with great hearts, a spade control and the ♦A. So I bid 4N, not really having any idea whether or not I was asking or telling 1430, but really just trying to survive a round of bidding. He bids 5♣. So is he responding or asking about the ♥Q? I bid 5♦, again, there is doubt - am I showing the ♥Q + ♦K (wait, I made a fit jump, so I can easily have this card. But he alerts it as a splinter - er..I'm supposed to ignore that inference). He bids 6♥ on x KT9xx ATxx Axx. So he did remember, and he thought I was responding.

We blow two more defenses in the last 6 boards. Our 72% collapses into a 58 and we end up 5th.

You might think, "this kind of crap never happens to me", but this was a silly local sectional against a lot of 99ers. Tournaments like this is essentially crushing weak pairs, and holding your own against the good ones.

Now, go to a NABC, where you might already be tired on day 1 because of the travel and imagine playing in a four or a six session event, where you aren't getting bestowed with gifts every other board. Imagine f-ing up an auction, and the toll this type of disaster can take on your game. In an event like this, if you are getting 55% you are playing well, and its not difficult to have just a few errors on your card and come in at 46%. This can be a serious blow to your confidence, and it is for reasons like this partnerships break up.

Now I can't blame situations like this on things like kickback LOL. But you can see how forgetting conventions can be very stressful, and you can see why even practiced partnerships consciously are taking things like kickback off of their card, instead of adding it.

[Zelandakh]

As a general meta-rule, when playing Kickback 4NT should have the meaning that the Kickback bid would have had if playing 4NT as RKCB. Usually this will either be XRKCB or a cue in the Kickback suit.

[jillybean]

Mbodell, on 2012-January-04, 04:49, said:

I think the real question is what leads to more mistakes kickback or exclusion? I imagine most BI partnerships (and many others) would do better to play neither.

Kickback comes up more often, so I guess it is more costly in practice. I see pairs mess up simple auctions all the time, let alone complicated ones.

How would you play:

1♦-1♥
2♣-2♠
3♦-3♠
4♥

or

2♣-2♦
3♦-3♥
3♠-4♣
4♥

to name two different auctions I've seen opponents mess up.

These are unusual auctions no matter what you play. If I remember our rules correctly, both 4♥ bids are
an offer to play there but I am having trouble imagining the hands. I will check with my partner and see
what his interpretation is.

Phil, thanks for the post. Some food for thought, I will share your comments with my pard.

[Zelandakh]

Oh yes, and

Mbodell, on 2012-January-04, 04:49, said:

1♦-1♥
2♣-2♠
3♦-3♠
4♥

probably depends on what the 3♠ bid means but for me is something like 1264 shape. (Repeat 4th suit is initially a half-stopper ask)

and

Mbodell, on 2012-January-04, 04:49, said:

2♣-2♦
3♦-3♥
3♠-4♣
4♥

is a cue bid for our agreed suit (spades) assuming that 3♦ was not denying a 4 card major. (4th suit at the 4 level is a slam try for the last bid suit)

What have either of these sequences got to do with Kickback though?

[jillybean]

Mbodell, on 2012-January-04, 04:49, said:

I think the real question is what leads to more mistakes kickback or exclusion? I imagine most BI partnerships (and many others) would do better to play neither.

Kickback comes up more often, so I guess it is more costly in practice. I see pairs mess up simple auctions all the time, let alone complicated ones.

How would you play:

1♦-1♥
2♣-2♠
3♦-3♠
4♥

or

2♣-2♦
3♦-3♥
3♠-4♣
4♥

to name two different auctions I've seen opponents mess up.

jillybean, on 2012-January-04, 08:34, said:

These are unusual auctions no matter what you play. If I remember our rules correctly, both 4♥ bids are
an offer to play there but I am having trouble imagining the hands. I will check with my partner and see
what his interpretation is.

Rightly or wrongly, we both agree 4♥ is to play.

[mike777]

fwiw


I love kickback and I agree with all the posts here.

It is very complicated, it leads to lots of errors while learning it.

We, I, use it alot.

At this point having to use 4nt as bw becomes a headache sometimes.

Learning to play the cards as the good players often say is much more important to improving our game.


4nt when h are trumps is a cue in spades, but I think playing it as exclusion when h are trumps is an excellent idea.

Off the top of my head the only concern I can think of is if we have a void in C or D when h are trumps. We cannot bid 4s rkc so we would often bid 4nt cue in spades and pard will understand we have a void in a minor very often due to lack of using kickback.

[blackshoe]

mike777, on 2012-January-05, 17:01, said:

4nt when h are trumps is a cue in spades, but I think playing it as exclusion when h are trumps is an excellent idea.

Would this not depend on how much room is available? I would think that, at least if you have 3♠ available (not a jump) that would be a control bid, leaving 4♠ for kickback, and 4NT for exclusion. If 3♠ is a jump, that would be a splinter. If 3♠ is not available, or is a jump, then I agree 4NT should be a control bid.

[mike777]

blackshoe, on 2012-January-05, 18:20, said:

Would this not depend on how much room is available? I would think that, at least if you have 3♠ available (not a jump) that would be a control bid, leaving 4♠ for kickback, and 4NT for exclusion. If 3♠ is a jump, that would be a splinter. If 3♠ is not available, or is a jump, then I agree 4NT should be a control bid.

Not sure I understand your question but I would never play it as "depends".

I rarely cuebid shortness below game, even with a void.

[blackshoe]

mike777, on 2012-January-05, 18:35, said:

Not sure I understand your question but I would never play it as "depends".

I rarely cuebid shortness below game, even with a void.

1♥-2♥-3♠
1♣-1♥-3♠

What's 3♠? For me, it's a splinter in both these auctions.

1♥-2♥-4NT

If you're not playing Kickback, 4NT is presumably RKCB. What would 4♠ be on this auction?

1♥-2♥-4♠

If 4♠ is Kickback, then 4NT is presumably whatever 4♠ would be if 4NT were RKCB.

If you play exclusion:

1♥-4NT

If 4NT is RKCB, then presumably 5♣ and 5♦ are exclusion, short in that suit. It seems wasteful to go past 5♥ to bid exclusion in spades.

[mike777]

blackshoe, on 2012-January-05, 19:14, said:

1♥-2♥-3♠
1♣-1♥-3♠

What's 3♠? For me, it's a splinter in both these auctions.

1♥-2♥-4NT

If you're not playing Kickback, 4NT is presumably RKCB. What would 4♠ be on this auction?

1♥-2♥-4♠

If 4♠ is Kickback, then 4NT is presumably whatever 4♠ would be if 4NT were RKCB.

If you play exclusion:

1♥-4NT

If 4NT is RKCB, then presumably 5♣ and 5♦ are exclusion, short in that suit. It seems wasteful to go past 5♥ to bid exclusion in spades.

Not sure what your point is but I see you ask two questions.

yes 3s would be a splinter, not a cuebid.

yes 4s would be kickback rkc in h., not playing kickback I guess 4s would be exclusion rkc in spades, but I would not try that without agreement to play exclusion. Pretty rare in the b/i world.

[blackshoe]

I was just trying to get a feel for how you play things, when you said you rarely show shortage controls.

I grant that exclusion would be rare amongst B/Is, and rightly so. And that one should not try it if it's not been explicitly agreed. But the question upthread that started this was "If you're playing exclusion..." Or so I thought. Maybe I misunderstood.

[32519]

---

I have seen enough disasters such as this one to realise that Kickback is an important toy to have in your partnership agreement. You can place the blame on either partner for bidding mishaps such as these. In the end it matters not who takes the blame. The auction ended in 6 off to Aces. If the ♠ fit was shown the auction could still have ended in 5♠.

My personal opinion is that BI should learn both Kickback and ECKB over Hearts (bidding judgement/discipline will also be helpful). Eventually they will move on to Advanced.

1♥ = Natural
2♣ = 2/1 Game Force
3♥ = Extra length/strength
4NT = RKCB
5♠ = 2 keycards plus the trump queen
6♥ = Disaster! 2 keycards missing