[32519]

This thread has been started to hear others thoughts on bidding minor suit 2-suited hands. Obviously a minor suit is going to be outgunned by the majors, so I am looking for suggestions on how to bid these hand types more effectively.

Hand Type 1: 5-5 minors and 5-10 HCP
Players who play Multi happily open these hand types with 2NT. The effectiveness of this has often been questioned. All you have succeeded in doing is convey the hand layout and HCP distribution to the opponents making it easier for them to balance and/or the subsequent play of the hand. Defending against this is also easy. One method I have seen used quite often is this –
• Double = both majors, majors equal in length
• 3♣ = both majors, longer ♥
• 3♦ = both majors, longer ♠

Opening these hand types probably originated from the Unusual 2NT convention. Once the opponents have opened 1 of either major, 2NT shows 5-5 in the minors, either weak (5-10 HCP) or strong (16+).

Question: Do we continue opening these hand types with 2NT? Is it better to pass instead and await further developments? What are alternate more effective uses for 2NT (20-22 balanced is obviously a popular choice)?

Hand Type 2: 5-5 minors and 11-13 HCP
I don’t see any problem here. These hand types are opened 1♦ and over partner’s (expected major suit) response, 2♣ is the rebid. If need be, the ♣ suit is repeated a second time on level 3 to convey the message of a 5-5 minor suit holding.

Question: Is there any need to change this agreement? I don’t see any.

Hand Type 3: 5-5 minors and 14-17 HCP
This is similar to hand type 2 but with this exception. These hand types are also opened 1♦ but after over partner’s (expected major suit) response, opener happily rebids 3♣ at his first opportunity. The message is an attempt to convey distribution and HCP holding.

Question 1: If you are quite happy to rebid 3♣ at your first opportunity with these hand types, won’t it be more effective to dump the 5-5 minors and 5-10 HCP from your Multi opening bid and replace it with these hand types? Now your 2NT Multi opening is less likely to be interfered with by the opponents. You have shown real values and partner’s holding in the major suits is unknown.

Question 2: When the opponents bid 1M-P-4M-?
Holding 5-5 minors and a reasonable HCP holding (16+?), many happily bid 4NT as a takeout of the major in this bidding sequence. If you are happy to do this for takeout, is it not an argument in favour of opening these hand types with 2NT as suggested in question 1?

Hand Type 4: 6-5-2-0 minors and 14-17 HCP
Here you don’t want the opponents to find a major suit fit at all.

Question: How about opening these hand types with 3NT? Partner has the following options over these opening bids –
• Pass = stoppers in both majors to play
• 4m = shut-up bid to play (bust hand)
• 5m = to play
• 4M = slam interest in either minor (you can assign any meaning you want to the 4M bid)

Hand Type 5: 6-5-1-1 minors 16+ HCP
What do you suggest opening with this?

Hand Type 6: 6-6-1-0 minors 16+ HCP
What do you suggest opening with this?

Hand Type 7: As responder holding 5-4 minors and game invitational values
For those who play Minor-Suit Stayman, over partner’s 1NT opening bid, 2♠ = 5-4 minors and 10-12 HCP.

Question: How do you bid these hand types if you don’t play MSS? (e.g. playing minor suit transfers)

Hand Type 8: As responder holding 5-5 minors and game going values
Over partner’s 1NT I have seen players bid 3♣ to show 5-5 minors and game going values. I have seen others use the 3♣ bid for Puppet Stayman (2♣ being standard Stayman). And yet others using 3♣ for a ♣ bust.

Question: Which treatment is better and why?

Hand Type 9: As responder holding 5-5 minors and slam going values.
Over partner’s 1NT I have seen players bid 3♦ to show 5-5 minors and slam interest.

Question: Do you agree with this treatment or is there a better one?

Please add other thoughts on bidding minor suit orientated hands e.g. what do you do with this 2X♠2X♥4X♦5X♣ and 12-13 HCP?

[Zelandakh]

Hand Type 1 we discussed before and I see no reason to have a new thread for it. To note in passing that I think it is more common to use the double for general values and 3C as both majors with hearts not worse than spades. This opening becomes quite difficult to defend if you bundle additional hand types into it, for example CRASH (minors of majors) or French (minors or hearts and a minor).

I disagree with you fundamentally on Hand Type 3. Unless playing limited openings it is normal to rebid 2C on these hands saving 3C for GF hands. Even when playing a 1D opening limited to 17 I only make this jump with 5-5 and ~16-17. obviously if you are playing something like Precision then you bid the 16-17hcp hands in a completely different way too.

Your idea for opening 3NT on Hand Type 4 is reasonable but suffers from the same problem from which you dismiss a weak minors 2NT opening. With 14-17hcp I think most og these hands would be prepared to either open 1D and rebid 5C if necessary or to open 1C and rebid 4NT (if necessary). Many of the same things apply to Hand Types 5 and 6, although those playing limited openers will probably channel most of these through their strong opening.

I am not sure I understand what you are asking on Hand Type 7 - if I have an invitational hand with no interest in the majors I am surely responding 2NT (or 2S if playing that as a range ask). I cannot see any reason to introduce my minors here when I am never going to be looking for 5/6/7m. With an invitational (13)54 I might look for an 8 card major fit if playing Puppet Stayman; otherwise I do not know what you are expecting.

For Hand Types 8 and 9, the best treatment depends on the rest of your NT structure. I use 1NT - 2S (range ask); 2NT (min) or 3C (max) - 3S to show 5-5 minors and SI. That is because I give more space to other hand types which are more common and (imho) more important. If you happen to have spare bids for specific hand types that are difficult to show another way then by all means use them. In the past I have used a 2NT response as "5-5 minors, weak; or diamonds, weak; or 5-5 minors, strong". In that case 1NT - 2NT; 3m - 3M (or higher) covers these hand types. There are many possible solutions here and I would not like to suggest one is better than another because the "best" solution for these hand types will naturally provide a worse solution for another hand type. You need to think of your 1NT structure as a whole here and not look at 5-5 minor hands in isolation.

[32519]

What has happened to –
whereagles
aguahombre
straube
awm
mike777
free
TWO4BRIDGE
blackshoe
the hog
gnasher
etc.

I really value your guys input. I am seeking guidance on how to show minor suit orientated hands more effectively. The posts placed here could possibly be of assistance to the BI players as well.

Thank you.

[mike777]

"Obviously a minor suit is going to be outgunned by the majors, so I am looking for suggestions on how to bid these hand types more effectively"


In general strong club systems or relay systems bid minor suit hands more effectively than say 2/1.

Even strong club systems such as RMprecision concede they favor majors over minors.

For B/I players bidding a minor suit slam over say 3nt will always be a difficult decision. It is even tough at times for wc players.


Fwiw I think we, me, can get better results by focusing on the play of the hand.
--

about all I can add is I open nt often with offshape hands with minors if that is an option.

[EricK]

Using 3♣ to show the weak minor two-suiter is probably better than using 2NT (as LHO doesn't have a "free" double to show general values). That, of course, leaves you what to do with a weak ♣ single suiter.

Is the following structure allowed? Is it any good?
2NT = pre-empt in either minor
3♣ = minor two suiter
3♦ = pre-empt in either major
3♥ = major two-suiter
3♠ = any solid suit nothing outside (right-siding the gambling 3NT)
3NT = 4-level pre-empt in either minor
4♣,4♦/4♥,♠ = strong/weak 4 level major pre-empts

It seems quite logical, so probably isn't original (and seems to have drifted way off topic!)

[Vampyr]

EricK, on 2012-January-12, 03:11, said:

It seems quite logical, so probably isn't original (and seems to have drifted way off topic!)

I think that the either/or preempts are quite good; they are difficult to defend against. These bids would all be legal in England, if I read the Orange Book correctly, but I do not know about anywhere else.

[Vampyr]

32519, on 2012-January-11, 00:53, said:

Question 2: When the opponents bid 1M-P-4M-?
Holding 5-5 minors and a reasonable HCP holding (16+?), many happily bid 4NT as a takeout of the major in this bidding sequence. If you are happy to do this for takeout, is it not an argument in favour of opening these hand types with 2NT as suggested in question 1?

Why would it be? Are the auctions somehow connected?

[32519]

32519, on 2012-January-11, 00:53, said:

Hand Type 3: 5-5 minors and 14-17 HCP
This is similar to hand type 2 but with this exception. These hand types are also opened 1♦ but after over partner’s (expected major suit) response, opener happily rebids 3♣ at his first opportunity. The message is an attempt to convey distribution and HCP holding.

Question 1: If you are quite happy to rebid 3♣ at your first opportunity with these hand types, won’t it be more effective to dump the 5-5 minors and 5-10 HCP from your Multi opening bid and replace it with these hand types? Now your 2NT Multi opening is less likely to be interfered with by the opponents. You have shown real values and partner’s holding in the major suits is unknown.

Question 2: When the opponents bid 1M-P-4M-?Holding 5-5 minors and a reasonable HCP holding (16+?), many happily bid 4NT as a takeout of the major in this bidding sequence. If you are happy to do this for takeout, is it not an argument in favour of opening these hand types with 2NT as suggested in question 1?

Vampyr, on 2012-January-12, 04:31, said:

Why would it be? Are the auctions somehow connected?

No, the auctions are not connected. I was suggesting that questions 1 + 2 for hand type 3 should be read in conjunction. I was suggesting that opening 2NT with real values and 5-5 minors may not be so easily interfered with by the opponents. With these hand types you will compete to level 3 anyway. So why not go there with your first bid?

Awm started a thread titled “Shape First!” http://www.bridgebas...14-shape-first/ Here you are showing shape and real values at the same time, making it less attractive for the opponents to enter the auction with marginal hands.

[Flameous]

I think you (and others who dislike weak minor opening) are missing the point, that it gives you one more offensive hand type you can describe with one bid.
It's not a big winner when it goes 2NT (X or P) 3m (X or whatever), the real wins come when your partner is able to pre-empt further. (Same goes for all weak openings, you are essentially exchanging room opps can use during bidding to information they can use during declaring)

If I had to consider in isolation whether to open (relatively high) weak minor suit hands or pass them, I wouldn't give it a seconds thought.
The point is that there are many other considerations. (What am I going to do with those 20-21 balanced hands for example)

For hand types 2 and 3, (I actually split ranges more like 10-14 and 15-17 but that's irrelevant) I follow your plan, though my 1♦ structure is far from natural and I doubt many can use their 3♣ rebid as limited like that. You didn't mention at all how you handle the stronger minor suit hands which natural methods bid 1D+3C and strong clubbers open 1♣. You rebid 4♣ with them or something?

Your hand types 4, 5 and 6 are so rare that having specific ways to show them is quite useless. (That mentioned, I actually have them. Not that they'd ever come up) Especially type 6 is often good for specific ace ask opening.

There are plenty of different NT structures, others handle minor suit hands better and others worse. I'd guess all structures strongly favor majors over minors so with minors you are always guessing a bit (more).

For xx45, for ages I opened 1♣ and rebid 1NT. It is actually the beginner standard here, raising partner shows 4 cards, rebidding clubs shows 6 and you can't bid diamonds without reverse values so 1NT works as a catch all. I don't have any problems with that style, it actually shocked me when people rebid their 5 card major suits over 1NT. Now I play unbalanced ♦ and can show my relative suit lengths accurately over 1♥.

Many open 1♦ and rebid 2♣ as that's what they'd do with some 1444 hands too. I'm not really fond of that style but to each his own.

I don't know if this helped you a bit as I play very nonstandard methods but apparently since you asked, you too have come to the conclusion that standard methods suck

[32519]

Flameous, on 2012-January-12, 07:38, said:

I think you (and others who dislike weak minor opening) are missing the point, that it gives you one more offensive hand type you can describe with one bid.
It's not a big winner when it goes 2NT (X or P) 3m (X or whatever), the real wins come when your partner is able to pre-empt further. (Same goes for all weak openings, you are essentially exchanging room opps can use during bidding to information they can use during declaring)

If I had to consider in isolation whether to open (relatively high) weak minor suit hands or pass them, I wouldn't give it a seconds thought.

I ran the 5-5 minors 5-10 HCP through BBO's deal generator. The frequency of occurrence = 0.45%.
Also for the 5-5 minors 14-18 HCP (1 point short of a strong jump shift/reverse bid). The frequency of occurrence = 0.16%.

The 5-5 minors weak gains in frequency of occurrence almost 3-1. The gain in frequency is offset by effectiveness of the bid. More so when partner is unable to lift the preempt further. Bottom line is, it probably will come down to each partnerships individual preferences as to your bidding style.