[elwood913]

Hi all,

I've been away from the forums for a while, good to see many familiar faces.

I read the reverse primer but didn't see any mention of what happens when the opponents are in the mix, so I thought I'd post a new topic.

What effect does opponent's bidding have on the meaning of opener's reverses, and is it standard to play the same methods in response to a reverse?

Here are a few example sequences for what I have in mind. They vary somewhat in what responder has already shown or denied, but I'm trying to get an idea of a general rule for what does and doesn't change in our understanding of reverses when in competition...

1♣ - (1♦) - 1♠ - (P) / 2♥
1♦ - (1♠) - P - (P) / 2♥
1♦ - (2♥) - P - (P) / 2♠ ,
and maybe even
1♦ - (P) - P - (1♠) / 2♥

The last is a little different, but in the others Responder can still have a fairly wide range of hand strength.

So, 2 questions --

In general, is opener still showing a standard reverse here. Or, especially in the hands in which responder has passed, might he only be describing a hand willing to compete but not necesarily as strong as a typical reverse. Take the third sequence for example -- After 1♦ - (2♥) - P - (P) you hold KQxx - x -AQJxxx - Kx. Wouldn't you like to bid a non-forcing 2S, though you're not really strong enough for a reverse? P might hold 4 spades without enough strength to get in over 2H, or a few diamonds not quite long enough or not quite strong enough to bid at his first turn. You bid 2♠ and find a good spot when P has one of those hands, and you cross your fingers and hope to land on your feet when he doesn't. Presumably then stronger hands would X first or Cue or something.

And then, how should responder proceed? Assuming the opener is showing a standard reverse, does responder use the same methods (where they are available to him)? So -- If you play Lebensohl-like responses, will 2NT still be the weak bid with 3-level bids showing strength that responder hasn't been able to express yet? Or has the competition too often changed responders options that he has to avail himself of something else? Finally, if opener might be showing a weaker hand, what do responder's bids mean then?

Thanks!

[EricK]

In all of these situations, opener is offering partner a choice of suits. In all cases opener should be longer in the first suit than the second. Up until opener's second bid, his partner does not know that opener has a shapely hand with a 5 card minor (he could have had a minimum balanced hand), and so responder might not have been able to support partner on the previous round.

What all this means is that opener must be prepared for partner to give preference to his first suit at the 3 level, and so must have the strength (and/or distribution)implied by that.

In general, with a weaker hand you can double (if you must bid at all!). This often allows responder a way out if he can't support either of your suits. eg after 1♦ (1♠) P (P), if you double, then responder can support your ♥ or ♦ if he has them, but might be able to escape into 2♣ or 1NT (or even occasionally 1♠X) if he has the right sort of hand. And if he has to reluctantly give preference to ♦ at least this is at the 2 level rather than the 3 level.

[elwood913]

Hi,

Thanks for the response.

I understand Doubling is the more flexible and often preferable reopening move. Perhaps I clouded the issue by giving an example hand and saying wouldn't you want to bid a reverse with this. Here's a more succinct way of asking my questions --

When opener does make a reverse in competition, what is he showing? A standard reverse? --or has the competitive nature of the auction changed his requirements at all (leading perhaps to the desire to allow reverse bids with weaker 2-suited holdings)? In those example bidding sequences, what hand is opener showing with the reverse?

Whatever Opener's reverse shows, how, if at all, do you have to/would you want to modify responder's conventional weakness-showing bids?

Thanks again!

[FrancesHinden]

You have give three rather different types of sequence - I know they are all 'reverses in competition', but opener's alternatives, and responder's strength, are different in all three. There's also a fourth one. The four types of auction are:

1. LHO overcalls, partner shows a 1-level response (by bidding or doubling) and opener makes a 2-level reverse
2. LHO passes, partner shows a 1-level response, RHO overcalls and opener makes a 2-level reverse
3. LHO overcalls, partner passes, RHO passes and opener makes a 2-level reverse
4. LHO passes, partner passes, RHO bids and opener makes a 2-level reverse

The first is different from the second, because opener doesn't have a double available.
In the third, partner has denied enough to bid on the first round, but can still have enough high-card values to make game on power a possibility.
In the fourth, partner has shown a very weak hand by passing the opening bid.

So to answer your first question, what is opener showing:

In 1. & 2. Responder has shown enough to respond at the 1-level and opener is showing a normal reverse i.e the same as an uncontested auction. For 2., if you play support doubles, it's a matter of partnership agreement whether opener has denied 3-card support for partner, or whether the support double denies the strength for a reverse. I don't think there's a standard (we play that the reverse typically denies 3-card support for partner unless opener has a game force and wants to pattern out). If you would play double as take-out, then opener will tend to be short in responder's suit so isn't suitable for a take-out double.

In 3.&4 Opener is showing a hand unsuitable for a double, so either short in an unbid major (e.g. 1C (1S) P P opener will not usually double with very short hearts) or very distributional. If opener is reversing into hearts (1m 1S P P 2H or 1m P P 1S 2H) I would expect him to be at least 4-6 and often more distributional. Opener has shown the same strength as a typical reverse (i.e. might be a bit lighter with 5-6 in the suits) but I do not think these bids are forcing, because responder has shown nothing.

To answer your second question, what should you play:

For 1&2 you can continue to play exactly as you do in an uncontested auction (2NT lebensohl etc). You don't necessarily need to, because responder also has a cue bid available to force to game. I don't think there is any 'standard' because most people have not discussed these auctions. FWIW, we play 'system on' in these auctions.

For 3&4 I think it is normal not to play any conventional methods as responder has already denied enough to bid on the first round: responder can pass, give simple preference (both weak calls), can raise opener's second suit, can jump raise opener's first suit, or can cue bid. For auction 3 the cue bid will often imply that responder had a penalty pass of the overcall, because that's the only hand that can have a lot of high cards and still have passed. Certainly for auction 3 2NT or 3NT by responder show a penalty pass of the overcall. For auction 4 the cue bid probably implies a huge fit for opener's second suit, as that's the only hand that can want to make a surprising bid.


p.s. in sequence one, you have to agree what a double shows: if 1C (1H) dbl shows exactly four spades, only, then opener's 2D bid is a reverse; if double shows spades and diamonds, then opener's 2D bid isn't. The key is to whether opener is bidding a suit responder has explictly shown, in which case it is just a raise. I saw a hand on vugraph yesterday where the auction started 1C 1H dbl P 2S. Dbl promised 4 spades, so 2S just shows a raise to the 2-level in spades. Responder correctly passed this, but opener had thought 2S was a very strong bid and in fact had a 20-count.

[flametree]

FrancesHinden, on 2012-January-15, 05:19, said:

I saw a hand on vugraph yesterday where the auction started 1C 1H dbl P 2S. Dbl promised 4 spades, so 2S just shows a raise to the 2-level in spades. Responder correctly passed this, but opener had thought 2S was a very strong bid and in fact had a 20-count.

So if a jump to 2S shows a minumum, what would 1S show?

[FrancesHinden]

1S could be a 3-card suit - suppose you had something like KQx 8xxx Ax Kxxx, what would you bid if not 1S? If it does have 4 spades it is sub-minimum.
Maybe I should rephrase as 2S just shows a 'sensible minimum' with 4 spades: all you are doing is raising partner's spades, not bidding a new suit.

[flametree]

Thanks Frances, I see.

Next question - is 3S invitational, and what's the best use for 2H?

[elwood913]

Thank you Frances, I appreciate your thoughtful response.

What you say about the reverse being normal when responder has bid and showed some values, but non-forcing when he hasn't makes sense.

I have an additional wrinlkle, though...

I'm playing a system where all 1-level suit openings are unlimited (Fantunes style). Given that the opener might have a game force or near game force in his hand, he needs a way to force responder to bid in these auctions. Should I just cue-bid here? Or X and then bid my second suit?
They both seem to have their issues -- If I reopen with a X p may convert to penalties when I'm bidding on a very offensive oriented 2-suiter, and if I cue bid the auction is going to be quite high before I ever mention my second suit. Maybe that's just the price I have to pay for emplying this style of opening bid...

[FrancesHinden]

flametree, on 2012-January-15, 16:41, said:

Thanks Frances, I see.

Next question - is 3S invitational, and what's the best use for 2H?

3♠ shows a hand that would have raised 1S to 3S on an uncontested auction, so yes it is invitational.

The standard meaning for the cuebid is to show a game forcing hand of some description. The most common hand is opener having a long minor of their own (on an uncontested auction opener was either going to rebid 3NT, but now doesn't have a stop, or was going to invent something). It's also possible that opener has 3-card support and either a long suit or their own or 18-19 balanced with no stop. It's also possible to cue with a game forcing raise of partner's suit, but these auctions can get really messy and it's safest when you have 4-card support to raise at once, or to bid something else that shows a raise (e.g. splinter).

You could play that a jump cuebid shows a game forcing raise, but most people play it specifically as shortage and 4-cards in partner's suit.

[FrancesHinden]

elwood913, on 2012-January-16, 22:23, said:

Thank you Frances, I appreciate your thoughtful response.

What you say about the reverse being normal when responder has bid and showed some values, but non-forcing when he hasn't makes sense.

I have an additional wrinlkle, though...

I'm playing a system where all 1-level suit openings are unlimited (Fantunes style). Given that the opener might have a game force or near game force in his hand, he needs a way to force responder to bid in these auctions. Should I just cue-bid here? Or X and then bid my second suit?
They both seem to have their issues -- If I reopen with a X p may convert to penalties when I'm bidding on a very offensive oriented 2-suiter, and if I cue bid the auction is going to be quite high before I ever mention my second suit. Maybe that's just the price I have to pay for emplying this style of opening bid...

I'm going to be less help here because I've never played this style of opening. So we are talking specifically about 1x (1-level overcall) P P ? because we can't have the auctions starting 1x p p overcall, as partner won't pass our opening.
You should definitely double on any hand that's prepared to defend opposite a penalty double.

If you have a game-forcing two-suiter you could jump in your second suit e.g. 1D (1S) P (P) 3H. I don't think that sequence really exists in standard methods(!). You could agree that e.g. 1D (1S) P (P) 3C is forcing as well (in standard methods it's strong but not quite forcing, because you can't have a game forcing opening). Then you could use the cue-bid to show a game force (or near game-forcing) single-suiter.