another alert question and an oops
#1
Posted 2012-February-17, 20:05
3♥
2N is not alertable, is 3♥ alertable and if 'yes' is it because it falls under convention bids?
Convention: A bid or call which, by partnership agreement, conveys a meaning not
necessarily related to the denomination named or, in the case of Pass, Double and Redouble, the
last denomination named. In addition a Pass which promises more than a specified strength,
or artificially promises or denies values other than the last suit named.
And the oops. Playing with new partner todeay, LHO openers 1N, partner doubles. I tap the alert card and say "alert - but I don't
know what it means". I find it normal to keep quiet when I know the meaning of a bid, not quite so easy when I don't know what it is.
#2
Posted 2012-February-17, 21:02
jillybean, on 2012-February-17, 20:05, said:
know what it means".
Might get a PP for this, as the UI is deliberate rather than accidental.
#3
Posted 2012-February-17, 21:56
Vampyr, on 2012-February-17, 21:02, said:
I agree I should, but it would never result in a PP here.
#4
Posted 2012-February-17, 22:52
#5
Posted 2012-February-18, 02:01
jillybean, on 2012-February-17, 20:05, said:
3♥
2N is not alertable, is 3♥ alertable and if 'yes' is it because it falls under convention bids?
Convention: A bid or call which, by partnership agreement, conveys a meaning not
necessarily related to the denomination named or, in the case of Pass, Double and Redouble, the
last denomination named. In addition a Pass which promises more than a specified strength,
or artificially promises or denies values other than the last suit named.
I would say that 3♥ is alertable. But can you explain to me why 2NT is not alertable? It is clearly a convention. Or is there a specific exception for 2NT "asking for a feature"?
Rik
The most exciting phrase to hear in science, the one that heralds the new discoveries, is not Eureka! (I found it!), but Thats funny Isaac Asimov
The only reason God did not put "Thou shalt mind thine own business" in the Ten Commandments was that He thought that it was too obvious to need stating. - Kenberg
#6
Posted 2012-February-18, 04:07
jillybean, on 2012-February-17, 20:05, said:
3♥
2N is not alertable, is 3♥ alertable and if 'yes' is it because it falls under convention bids?
Convention: A bid or call which, by partnership agreement, conveys a meaning not
necessarily related to the denomination named or, in the case of Pass, Double and Redouble, the
last denomination named. In addition a Pass which promises more than a specified strength,
or artificially promises or denies values other than the last suit named.
And the oops. Playing with new partner todeay, LHO openers 1N, partner doubles. I tap the alert card and say "alert - but I don't
know what it means". I find it normal to keep quiet when I know the meaning of a bid, not quite so easy when I don't know what it is.
In Acol 2NT is alterable if asking for strength of partners weak 2, as is the answer 3H.
It is better to alert even when you cannot remember the reason. Just say " I cannot remember", if then the opps want to know what it is you can volunteer to step away from the table and they can ask your partner. You should never say "I take it as ......". That could be UI.
#7
Posted 2012-February-18, 08:09
tabaresort, on 2012-February-18, 04:07, said:
It is better to alert even when you cannot remember the reason. Just say " I cannot remember", if then the opps want to know what it is you can volunteer to step away from the table and they can ask your partner. You should never say "I take it as ......". That could be UI.
I must Alert, it is not correct to say " I cannot remember" until asked about the alert - that was my entire point.
2NT is not alertable (unless it is natural) simply because the ACBL alert chart says so.
Listed under no alert, Conventional 2NT responses to natural two-level opening bids
#8
Posted 2012-February-18, 10:34
Trinidad, on 2012-February-18, 02:01, said:
Rik
It is not alertable because (aside from the fact that ACBL says so), it is part of the concept that the Alert can only help the side using it to remember their agreements. Explaining what partner is going to do is not a good thing.
The recent change in alertability of Puppet is another move in the right direction. Now, if we could only get rid of other disclosures which explain what will happen next.....
#9
Posted 2012-February-18, 11:00
jillybean, on 2012-February-18, 08:09, said:
2NT is not alertable (unless it is natural) simply because the ACBL alert chart says so.
Listed under no alert, Conventional 2NT responses to natural two-level opening bids
Sorry I was referring to ACOL. I must admit I do not know anything about the American systems.
#10
Posted 2012-February-18, 11:56
As for tv, screw it. You aren't missing anything. -- Ken Berg
I have come to realise it is futile to expect or hope a regular club game will be run in accordance with the laws. -- Jillybean
#11
Posted 2012-February-18, 21:16
#12
Posted 2012-February-18, 21:50
LH2650, on 2012-February-18, 21:16, said:
This reasoning is along the lines of the discussion I am having. They are saying 3M is not alertable here because " I think because 3 hearts is a natural bid, it is not alertable. A rebid of a suit is usually the weakest bid a player can make. Which is what it means in this case." I think the fact that it denies an outside control makes it alertable.
#13
Posted 2012-February-18, 21:57
#14
Posted 2012-February-18, 22:08
kevperk, on 2012-February-18, 21:57, said:
You made that up just to annoy us? Conventional responses to the 2NT asking bid are alertable.
#15
Posted 2012-February-18, 22:57
aguahombre, on 2012-February-18, 22:08, said:
I've never heard of anyone being required to alert feature responses in ACBL. It's the assumed default set of responses to 2NT. Any OTHER type of response would be alertable.
I can't find any justification of this in the Alert Procedures, but it's the way everyone has always done it. Maybe it's because bidding a suit with a feature is considered natural? But I think you would show a doubleton honor, and that's not a natural suit.
#16
Posted 2012-February-18, 23:04
and I love this
Quote
#17
Posted 2012-February-18, 23:28
KX in a side suit does not meet the definition of "natural", which requires 3+ cards in a minor or 4+ in a major. There is no confusion.
There is also no confusion about the rules which state a natural bid which carries information about some other suit(s) is alertable. That would be the case when the rebid of the weak two suit denies an outside feature.
Perhaps nobody has followed the rules in someone's experience; but that does not make it the correct procedure. No competent pair I have ever run across has failed to alert the feature or lack-of-feature responses to 2NT.
#18
Posted 2012-February-18, 23:47
#19
Posted 2012-February-19, 00:02
"Any procedure herein, which in the player's experience is not adhered to by the majority of players, is not a requirement."
#20
Posted 2012-February-19, 00:16