[Fluffy]

aguahombre, on 2012-April-06, 21:32, said:

I still think X XX AX AKXXXXXX was the best offering.

You need a hand that won't rebid 4♣ over 3NT, rebidding 4N is quite different.

[JLOGIC]

rmnka447, on 2012-April-08, 21:13, said:

I think you scoped it out well. Partner does sound like he might hold 16-17 with bad ♣s or what he actually held -- reasonably good ♣s and about 15. In either case, the stiff ♣ J is a negative even though you hold 16 HCP.

Yes the stiff jack was so awful when partner had AQT9xx... lol, wat?

[ArtK78]

Last night I was playing in an ACBL speedball pairs (matchpoints) when I picked up:

---
J9xx
x
AKQJTxxx

No one vul, I am the dealer.

I opened 1♣ and partner bid 1♠.

I chose to rebid 2♣.

Partner bid 3NT, and I passed.

This was the best spot, as partner held:

QJxxx
Qxx
AQJx
9x

Double dummy, they have the first 5 tricks (probably 7, if declarer tries to make the contract), as the opening leader holds AKT9x of spades and xx of hearts, and his partner has the AK of hearts. What actually happened, however, was that the opening leader led A, K and another spade. That was not best for his side.

On most lies of the cards, 3NT is the double-dummy best spot.

The point of my post (and I apologize for taking so long to get there) is that opener can have very long strong clubs for his minimal bidding. I was tempted to bid again over 3NT, but, fortunately, I did not.

[daveharty]

kfay, on 2012-April-06, 12:39, said:

Rebid 2NT? Surely you can't be serious.

[MrAce]

Of course i can open 1 NT. I dont even know why i didnt at the time tbh. I can own that, but bid 2 NT after opening 1♣ ? Really ?

[inquiry]

I found this auction interesting enough to take a look at it.

in bridgebrowser databases, anytime 3nt was not the final contract (over several thousand auctions that started 1C - 1H
2C - 3NT
? <-- non pass

the average result for opener's side was minus 1.86 imps per board. What the 4NT bid was, most of the time, was someone who should have opened 1NT and didn't. Here are a few typical examples (names removed, but their lehman like score shown)

NOTES"
1. north, south, east, or west might be at the top of the hand diagrams....sorry about that.
2. all the 4NT bidders had a standard 1nt opening bid, and they are trying to catch up now
3. all the 4NT bidders had lehman scores of less than 50, most much less than 50 (meaning less than average players -- no offense meant for our friend timo).

IMP-352     East        Dlr: North 
Board 46856 S AT4       Vul: E-W 
            H T2        
North       D AJ5       South       
S 8532      C AJT95     S K96       
H Q6                    H A984      
D K6        West        D T9742     
C KQ873     S QJ7       C 4         
            H KJ753     
            D Q83       
            C 62        

North      East       South      West       
47.27      47.29      51.34      49.12      
Pass       1C         Pass       1H         
Pass       2C         Pass       3NT        
Pass       4NT        Pass       Pass       
Pass       
==========================================
IMP-354     East        Dlr: East  
Board 7218  S Q92       Vul: E-W 
            H K4        
North       D K72       South       
S KJ7       C AKT83     S T8654     
H AT96                  H J7        
D T984      West        D QJ63      
C J7        S A3        C 52        
            H Q8532     
            D A5        
            C Q964      

North      East       South      West       
37.80      41.17      45.41      59.03      
           1C         Pass       1H         
Pass       2C         Pass       3NT        
Pass       4NT        Pass       Pass       
Pass       
==========================================
IMP-354     South       Dlr: North 
Board 8195  S AJ        Vul: E-W 
            H A2        
East        D J642      West        
S 98542     C AJ532     S Q763      
H T85                   H KJ74      
D Q83       North       D KT7       
C K6        S KT        C Q7        
            H Q963      
            D A95       
            C T984      

East       South      West       North      
50.04      44.21      43.60      48.21      
                                 Pass       
Pass       1C         Pass       1H         
Pass       2C         Pass       3NT        
Pass       4NT        Pass       Pass       
Pass       

==========================================
IMP-1       West        Dlr: South 
Board 8701  S KT9       Vul: N-S 
            H 53         
South       D AT8       North       
S 543       C AKJT5     S AJ82      
H J87                   H Q96       
D K964      East        D 75        
C 832       S Q76       C Q974      
            H AKT42     
            D QJ32      
            C 6         

South      West       North      East       
43.08      40.73      49.10      58.33      
Pass       1C         Pass       1H         
Pass       2C         Pass       3NT        
Pass       4NT        Pass       Pass       
Pass       

[aguahombre]

Both opener and responder deserved each other on all of those.

[gnasher]

Those hands seem to tell us that anyone who bids 4NT in this sequence is an idiot. Maybe we knew that anyway.

[MrAce]

gnasher, on 2012-May-06, 02:02, said:

Those hands seem to tell us that anyone who bids 4NT in this sequence is an idiot. Maybe we knew that anyway.

Ty for the compliment, Andy.

[nige1]

Phil, on 2012-April-05, 23:44, said:

A973 AKJx K8xx J
1♣ - 1♥
2♣ - 3N
4N - ?

I think partner has e.g. ♠ Kx ♥ x ♦ Axx ♣ KQTxxxx and intends 4N as a slam try in ♣. If so, then your tops and ♣J suggest acceptance.

[gnasher]

MrAce, on 2012-May-06, 19:36, said:

Ty for the compliment, Andy.

Sorry, I'd forgotten that it was you who bid 4NT on the original hand.

[rmnka447]

JLOGIC, on 2012-April-09, 14:31, said:

Yes the stiff jack was so awful when partner had AQT9xx... lol, wat?

The problem is that responder doesn't exactly know opener holds AQ109xx in ♣. You need Kx onside to set up the ♣ suit without the loss of a trick. Give responder ♣ Jx and there is much better hope of setting up ♣ as a source of tricks whenever opener's holding is anything reasonable. Ergo, give opener A109xxx and stiff J pretty much dooms you to 2 ♣ losers most of the time, but Jx gives you a reasonable chance to develop 5 ♣ tricks with 1 loser.

I can't disagree with opener's bidding. He held 15 with 2 dangling Qs, so it seems right to make a simple 2 ♣ response with this 7 loser hand. Responder's 3 NT can have a wide range of values from a really good 12 up to a 16-17 pointer that wouldn't invite slam opposite opener's presumed 12-14 pointer. So 4 NT is an aggressive, but reasonable try for slam. Everyone scoped it out as a 15-16 hand with a flaw that precluded rebidding 3 ♣.

[han]

rmnka447, on 2012-May-08, 13:18, said:

The problem is that responder doesn't exactly know opener holds AQ109xx in ♣. You need Kx onside to set up the ♣ suit without the loss of a trick. Give responder ♣ Jx and there is much better hope of setting up ♣ as a source of tricks whenever opener's holding is anything reasonable. Ergo, give opener A109xxx and stiff J pretty much dooms you to 2 ♣ losers most of the time, but Jx gives you a reasonable chance to develop 5 ♣ tricks with 1 loser.

I have never understood why people use "Ergo" when there are so many good English synonyms. However, as far as I know, "Also" is not one of them.

[Zelandakh]

http://thesaurus.com/browse/ergo?s=t. As someone with a maths background I also hate the word in a general context. However, this is an international forum and I prefer to give non-English speakers the benefit of any doubt about language usage in their posts.

[gnasher]

Zelandakh, on 2012-May-11, 03:16, said:

http://thesaurus.com/browse/ergo?s=t. As someone with a maths background I also hate the word in a general context. However, this is an international forum and I prefer to give non-English speakers the benefit of any doubt about language usage in their posts.

Han's main objection wasn't to the use of "ergo" in a general context. He was disputing the implied causal relationship to the preceding sentence.

[Zelandakh]

Perhaps I misread it but han's first sentence seems to me to suggest that he prefers alternative words to "ergo" such as "therefore", which I agreed with in my second sentence. Han's second sentence points out that the word was misused - I agree with this too but noted in my third sentence that it is personally not my way to point out such mistakes on an international forum where there are many non-native speakers.

[han]

You have a good point Zel, but isn't it true that especially in an international context that one should refrain from embellishing English sentences with latin words?

By the way, despite rmnka447's incorrect usage of the word ergo, he strikes me as a native.

[Zelandakh]

Well he certainly has Illinois in the profile - whether that makes him a native speaker is another matter. It would be hard for me to agree with you about the latin words without contradicting myself since I have used some myself on BBF. Perhaps I should try and take your point on board though, especially if you think my posts might have been confusing.

[MrAce]

Zelandakh, on 2012-May-11, 03:16, said:

http://thesaurus.com/browse/ergo?s=t. As someone with a maths background I also hate the word in a general context. However, this is an international forum and I prefer to give non-English speakers the benefit of any doubt about language usage in their posts.

English is definetely not my native language so hard for me to tell if it is something used correct or wrong, but i don't think usage of this word has anything to do with being a native speaker of the language or not, but rather style or choice. Here is another example i found in forums for this word used by a native speaker.

JLOGIC, on 2012-May-11, 12:17, said:

RHO didn't play the SA. Ergo LHO has the SA. Ergo I win the SK!

We hope to take 4 club tricks, 2 diamond tricks, 2 heart tricks, and a 9th trick. We can take that 9th trick right now with the SK. Ergo I win the SK!

Give the first statement, if we duck trick one we will lose at least 4 spades and 1 diamod. That is 5 tricks for them which is not good. However, if we win trick 1 they might only have 3 spades and 1 diamond (that's right, if spades are 4-3!).

[Phil]

Ergo simply means "therefore".