[johnu]

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I was kibitzing a table with a large number of specs and several of them made some very unflattering comments about the 4th position, vul versus vul opening bid chosen by South. What's your choice?

[Antrax]

To ignore kibs in general. That being said, I'll try 3♣ because I have matchpointitis and hope partner can make 3NT with his presumed major-suit length.

[ahydra]

Antrax, on 2012-May-31, 00:39, said:

To ignore kibs in general. That being said, I'll try 3♣ because I have matchpointitis and hope partner can make 3NT with his presumed major-suit length.

As a passed hand, is partner really bidding 3NT? :/ Maybe if he has Kxxx Kxxx Axx xx but even he might have opened, or wouldn't bid 3NT due to the risk of turning 110 into a minus when you have 7 clubs to KQJ and an outside Q or something. (edit: depends on expected strength in 4th seat for a pre-empt. If it should be a little stronger than a 2nd seat pre-empt, then the 3C->3NT ploy might work)

I've got no idea what to try here. I think I'd probably opt for 5C and hope partner can provide me with two tricks.

ahydra

[Zelandakh]

No "Other" option? I know several players who would look at their long suit and 9 Playing Tricks and open 2♣ without thinking very much further. Admittedly most of those play 2♣ as Benji. Also, a possible convention, especially in fourth seat, is to play a 3NT opening as a good 4m preempt. If you were to be playing this then this hand would qualify. To me it seems that we have to make a decision if we would be happy bidding 5♣ over a 4M bid from the opponents. If yes then we can afford to open 1♣, if no then we should probably punt 3♣ or 3NT. It is worth mentioning that a couple of clubs together with ♦A and a major suit ace is all it takes for 6♣.

[Codo]

ahydra, on 2012-May-31, 05:04, said:

As a passed hand, is partner really bidding 3NT? :/ Maybe if he has Kxxx Kxxx Axx xx but even he might have opened, or wouldn't bid 3NT due to the risk of turning 110 into a minus when you have 7 clubs to KQJ and an outside Q or something. (edit: depends on expected strength in 4th seat for a pre-empt. If it should be a little stronger than a 2nd seat pre-empt, then the 3C->3NT ploy might work)

I've got no idea what to try here. I think I'd probably opt for 5C and hope partner can provide me with two tricks.

ahydra

I doubt anybody would bid 3 Club in fourth seat with KQJxxx(xx) in clubs. Why should he? It shows a semisolid suit with a little stuff elsewhere, so I would bid 3 NT with Axx, JTxx, xxxx,xx with convidence and with your example hand I would think about 6 Clubs.

[ArtK78]

1♣.

No one has bid to this point, so I am not expecting any significant interference.

I am making a slam opposite two aces and a couple of clubs, so 3♣ (even a 4th seat 3♣) is just not right. [If the 2 aces are in the majors I may need the ♦J as well]. Partner is marked with some values so looking for a magic fit is not as much of a reach as it might normally be.

Even if there is interference, I will go back to bidding 5♣ which some might have opened. I certainly do not expect that the opps can make 11 tricks in a major suit (or anything close to it) after the auction starts with 3 passes to me.

[straube]

I'll try 4C. Hopefully partner can raise.

[ahydra]

ArtK78, on 2012-May-31, 08:21, said:

1♣...

I am making a slam opposite two aces and a couple of clubs, so 3♣ (even a 4th seat 3♣) is just not right. [If the 2 aces are in the majors I may need the ♦J as well]. Partner is marked with some values so looking for a magic fit is not as much of a reach as it might normally be.

I actually thought along similar lines before deciding the risk of interference was too high. Perhaps you're right though, you can always bid 5C.

ahydra

[Phil]

1♣. No need to pull the ripcord and do anything strange. I expect my opponents to bid some majors, but its also possible we may have clear seas to 3N or even slam.

What are people rebidding after 1♣ - (pass / bid) - 1M - (pass); - ?

[johnu]

The player at the table opened 1♣ and was ripped by some kibs for not opening 3♣ with another kib lobbying for 4♣. I wasn't paying that close attention before the kibs started up, but I thought it was a routine 1♣ opener. Maybe the opponents will jam the bidding in the majors, but as others have pointed out, it doesn't take much from partner to make a game and a couple of aces and a modest club fit brings slam into the picture. A initial preempt not only preempts the opponents but your side as well.

[mike777]

johnu, on 2012-May-31, 23:13, said:

The player at the table opened 1♣ and was ripped by some kibs for not opening 3♣ with another kib lobbying for 4♣. I wasn't paying that close attention before the kibs started up, but I thought it was a routine 1♣ opener. Maybe the opponents will jam the bidding in the majors, but as others have pointed out, it doesn't take much from partner to make a game and a couple of aces and a modest club fit brings slam into the picture. A initial preempt not only preempts the opponents but your side as well.

i GUESS THE POINT IS a 3c bid tells our hand it does not preempt our side......

fwiw I would miss game here if one.

3c seems to be playing for perfect cards from pard or a misbid by other 3 players
I mean on this auction would not be shocked 4s makes by opp.

[han]

It is not important whether the opponents can find and make 4M, because we would never sell out to 4M undoubled. Partner is marked with some HCP and we have (sometimes good) play for 5C if partner has one ace. I don't see how 3C tells anything like that to partner.

[RMB1]

Zelandakh, on 2012-May-31, 06:12, said:

No "Other" option? I know several players who would look at their long suit and 9 Playing Tricks and open ...

3NT?

[Zelandakh]

RMB1, on 2012-June-01, 00:43, said:

3NT?

Are you saying that 3NT as a good 4m preempt is a bad convention, or simply that it is wrong on this hand? I have no problem with the latter since I think we can/should bid 5♣ over their 4M. It was more of a general point about alternative bids that some players might choose with this hand type (and therefore would be suitable as poll choices).

[RMB1]

I wasn't being too serious: I was intending 3NT as to play, based on a long minor, and ambivalent about outside stops.

[SteveMoe]

I chose 5♣ assuming ♣ come in with no loser opposite partner's average length in that suit. Adding one winner from partner makes 11 tricks for us.

Usually vulnerable 4th position opening bids at the 3/4/5 level are for the exact number of tricks we expect to take. I am choosing the 5 level here because I don't want opponents finding a valuable sacrifice at the 5 level in a major. It might also get us to 6♣ if partner has 2 aces.

[Quantumcat]

3♣ because that's exactly what I have - 4th seat pre-empts are usually a decent hand (13-15 HCP) that ask partner to bid game with a fit and medium amount of HCP or any maximum passed hand. They are both useful for getting to game with a bit less than game values (when pard has a nice fit) and they keep the opponents from making an easy 1 or 2-level overcall and finding a sacrifice or just competing, or telling each other the killing lead. This is usually only applicable to 2♥ or 2♠ openings in 4th seat, but if you and your partner already have an understanding about those then he should figure out what the 3♣ opening is. Depending on pard's hand he might pass, bid 4 or 5♣, or bid 3NT. I would expect with a fitting honour and some kings and queens he might bid 3NT, with a small singleton or doubleton club but some aces he might bid 4 or 5♣.

[perko90]

I voted for 3♣'s (not a pre-empt, but a descriptive bid). I have no problem with 5♣'s either (any A in dummy gives you a shot). Heck, even a 4NT opener could be considered (assuming 5C = 0). If ptr has the magic 2 bullet hand and xx support, 6C is a good play. 1♣ is definitely last choice.

[rmnka447]

No need to preempt in 4th seat with a normal preempt, so the bid should be descriptive. 3 ♣ looks fine to me as a bid defining my strength and approximate playing strength.

The problem with 1 ♣ is that the opponents may have the opportunity show a major holding via a low level overcall. Since both opponents have passed, it will be more difficult to compete over 3 ♣.

[JLOGIC]

Phil, on 2012-May-31, 12:11, said:

1♣. No need to pull the ripcord and do anything strange. I expect my opponents to bid some majors, but its also possible we may have clear seas to 3N or even slam.

What are people rebidding after 1♣ - (pass / bid) - 1M - (pass); - ?

For once I totally agree with Phil (mainly because he's not doing something genius ). Just open 1C and bid normally. We can always compete to 4C if necessary, why open it?