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Transfer Lebensohl Rubensohl? Hard to know

Poll: Invititational? (36 member(s) have cast votes)

Do you invite with this?

  1. Yes, thank god you play transfer lebensohl (9 votes [25.00%] - View)

    Percentage of vote: 25.00%

  2. I make a take-out double, and pass whatever partner does (13 votes [36.11%] - View)

    Percentage of vote: 36.11%

  3. I drop partner at the 3 level (10 votes [27.78%] - View)

    Percentage of vote: 27.78%

  4. I pass (0 votes [0.00%])

    Percentage of vote: 0.00%

  5. Something else (4 votes [11.11%] - View)

    Percentage of vote: 11.11%

What does partner's cue-bid mean? (multiple answers possible)

  1. Partner is giving you a choice of games (17 votes [38.64%] - View)

    Percentage of vote: 38.64%

  2. Partner has a great hand for hearts (14 votes [31.82%] - View)

    Percentage of vote: 31.82%

  3. Partner would like to know if you have another suit to bid (3 votes [6.82%] - View)

    Percentage of vote: 6.82%

  4. something else (3 votes [6.82%] - View)

    Percentage of vote: 6.82%

  5. Many of the above choices seem reasonable - you should discuss it and figure it out (7 votes [15.91%] - View)

    Percentage of vote: 15.91%

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#1 User is offline   CSGibson 

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Posted 2012-June-28, 22:50



First of all, do you agree with showing an invitational hand with 5+ hearts? Other systemic choices would be to X (ostensibly take-out, but partner has the right to leave it in), or to sign off at the 3 level.

2nd, after you make the invitational + heart bid, partner pulls an undiscussed cue-bid out of his butt. Any thoughts as to what this should mean?
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#2 User is offline   straube 

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Posted 2012-June-28, 23:46

I voted dbl for the first, but I'll raise hearts and hope. I think the hand is too weak to invite hearts (3D). For instance, if partner rebid 3N I would worry we didn't have enough. My second choice would be to drop partner in hearts (2N), but insisting on hearts seems unilateral with two other places to play. I'm only a little concerned partner may pass the double.

I voted COG for the second. I'm a passed hand so cueing for hearts seems less useful and may tip off the opponents that we have a great fit.

Interested to see what other responses you get.
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#3 User is offline   relknes 

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Posted 2012-June-29, 02:05

I think this hand is too weak to invite hearts, so I voted for the takeout double.
Absent partnership agreement, I would take partner's cuebid as looking for a spade stopper to play 3N. I could also see it as agreeing hearts, however. Competitive auctions are tricky, by nature, and this situation should really be discussed. The basic situation of opponents agreeing a suit and you showing a suit of your own is frequent enough that a cuebid should be well defined for a consistant partnership, imho.
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#4 User is offline   Zelandakh 

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Posted 2012-June-29, 02:44

When 3♦ is invitational or better in hearts then 3♠ shows a maximum without a heart fit or a spade stopper. You can call this cog if you like but I would prefer to just say what the bid shows rather than attaching a label to it. After all, 3NT (max without fit, with stop) is cog too if you want to see it that way.
(-: Zel :-)
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#5 User is offline   mgoetze 

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Posted 2012-June-29, 02:59

3♦ at IMPs, double at MPs.
"One of the painful things about our time is that those who feel certainty are stupid, and those with any imagination and understanding are filled with doubt and indecision"
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#6 User is offline   straube 

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Posted 2012-June-29, 07:12

 Zelandakh, on 2012-June-29, 02:44, said:

When 3♦ is invitational or better in hearts then 3♠ shows a maximum without a heart fit or a spade stopper. You can call this cog if you like but I would prefer to just say what the bid shows rather than attaching a label to it. After all, 3NT (max without fit, with stop) is cog too if you want to see it that way.


Partner overcalled NT after the opponent's major suit open. Most people promise a stopper with that call. If partner took a chance with spade length and no stopper and maximum NT values, it seems unlikely he would be looking for a stopper in partner's hand after a spade raise.
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#7 User is offline   gnasher 

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Posted 2012-June-29, 07:55

3♠ shows doubt about strain - probably a single spade stopper and a doubleton honour in hearts.
... that would still not be conclusive proof, before someone wants to explain that to me as well as if I was a 5 year-old. - gwnn
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#8 User is offline   fromageGB 

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Posted 2012-June-30, 07:12

I wouldn't invite with this hand, but would want to play in a contract. Takeout X is good.

Having invited, 3♠ must be GF but not hearts, so will be a hand with good minor(s), I think. I bid 4♣ and if he corrects to 4♦, I pass.

edited after posting - reread the OP

This post has been edited by fromageGB: 2012-June-30, 07:18

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#9 User is offline   CSGibson 

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Posted 2012-June-30, 10:42

 fromageGB, on 2012-June-30, 07:12, said:

I wouldn't invite with this hand, but would want to play in a contract. Takeout X is good.



Would you be unhappy if partner passed the take-out X? He has the right to do so in our methods with a decent 4 card holding, irrespective of the rest of his hand, so we tend to have invitational values with a singleton or void as compensation for our lack of the expected 2 spades.
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#10 User is offline   benlessard 

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Posted 2012-June-30, 13:07

Assuming imps, I find a take out X risky since I expect partner to pass fairly frequently (KJ8x is enough). Inviting is a bit too optimist to my taste unless I play a stronger range than standard (I prefer a 16-19 range).

Signing off in 3H might turn out wrong but its the less evil option for me. At MP a take out X looks normal.
From Psych "I mean, Gus and I never see eye-to-eye on work stuff.
For instance, he doesn't like being used as a human shield when we're being shot at.
I happen to think it's a very noble way to meet one's maker, especially for a guy like him.
Bottom line is we never let that difference of opinion interfere with anything."
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#11 User is offline   benlessard 

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Posted 2012-June-30, 13:14

I would play 3S as COG. 2 stopper (but somewhat useful for 4H contract) and a fit or a single S stop (but somewhat useful for 4H contract) and no fit.
From Psych "I mean, Gus and I never see eye-to-eye on work stuff.
For instance, he doesn't like being used as a human shield when we're being shot at.
I happen to think it's a very noble way to meet one's maker, especially for a guy like him.
Bottom line is we never let that difference of opinion interfere with anything."
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#12 User is offline   fromageGB 

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Posted 2012-July-01, 03:28

 straube, on 2012-June-28, 23:46, said:

I voted COG for the second.

OK, everybody wants COG, but what's that? The bridgebase search of course refuses to tell me, being an abbreviation, and otherwise it is a pop group or an obscure organisation. COG bridge, on the other hand, is in Scotland or Canada apparently.
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#13 User is offline   mgoetze 

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Posted 2012-July-01, 05:58

 fromageGB, on 2012-July-01, 03:28, said:

OK, everybody wants COG, but what's that?

Choice of Games.
"One of the painful things about our time is that those who feel certainty are stupid, and those with any imagination and understanding are filled with doubt and indecision"
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#14 User is offline   fromageGB 

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Posted 2012-July-02, 02:48

 mgoetze, on 2012-July-01, 05:58, said:

Choice of Games.

Obvious - if you think of it ! Thanks
Maybe the pinned "useful abbreviations" thread should have just one entry, editable by everyone, to keep these all in one place.
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#15 User is offline   psyck 

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Posted 2012-July-02, 07:23

I like the Rumpelsohl version - Your sohl or mine? - not that it matters much in the decision to be made here...
Cheers, Krishna.
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#16 User is offline   JLOGIC 

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Posted 2012-July-03, 10:18

 Zelandakh, on 2012-June-29, 02:44, said:

When 3♦ is invitational or better in hearts then 3♠ shows a maximum without a heart fit or a spade stopper. You can call this cog if you like but I would prefer to just say what the bid shows rather than attaching a label to it. After all, 3NT (max without fit, with stop) is cog too if you want to see it that way.


True if it went 1N 2S 3D p 3S, but here partner overcalled 1N over 1S so I don't think that he can show no spade stopper.
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#17 User is offline   lalldonn 

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Posted 2012-July-03, 11:24

I agree with choice of games but to me it's more likely to be heart fit but wants to leave 3NT alive, not 1 spade stopper without a heart fit.

Also I totally agree with 3♦. I won a game swing recently after 1♦ (precision) 1NT 3♦ bidding 3♥ inv+ spades with QJTxxx xxxx x xx, figuring I was better off even if I had to be in 4♠ than defending 3♦. Double with the void and with five hearts is just too flawed for me on the problem hand.
"What's the big rebid problem? After 1♦ - 1♠, I can rebid 1NT, 2♠, or 2♦."
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