[han]

 Mbodell, on 2012-August-30, 01:35, said:

this hand, which is 9 LTC

Ouch!

[kenrexford]

 Trinidad, on 2012-August-30, 00:54, said:

It is nice to have a non forcing "forcing 1NT", but not if it can contain support for opener's major. In those cases, you will often end up in a ridiculous 1NT contract. The effect of Drury is that it takes exactly those hands out of the 1NT response. When partner opens 1♠ in fourth seat and you hold:

♠ K73
♥ KT96
♦ KJ754
♣ 5

do you really want to bid 1NT? You may be down before you get in while 4♠ is cold. Or do you prefer to bid 2♦ and play it there opposite a weak no trump?

Something similar happens at the other end of the strength range:

♠ J73
♥ T962
♦ KJ75
♣ 54

You will be down in 1NT, but partner can make 2♠ easily. Alternatively, partner bids 2NT with 18-19 balanced and you will be forced to bid 3♠ (hoping that partner passes), where you could have simply been in 2♠.

If you play Drury, with the first hand you will bid Drury, showing about 9-11(14). This will get you to the right strain, and leaves you room to get to the right level. With the second hand, you will bid 2♠, showing about 5(4)-8. Again, you will be in the right contract.

By taking the raises out of the non forcing forcing 1NT, you will get to NT when it is right. The wide strength range will be an advantage since declarer's hand is not known. Opposite dummy's 12, you may hold 6 or 11 HCP.

Finally, you have a good point that 2♣ is useful as a natural bid since there is no weak 2 in clubs. I think that using 2♣ as Drury still wins over natural, but some people play 2♦ as Drury to retain the possibility to show a weak 2 in clubs.

Rik

On the first proposed hand, you have 12-13 in support. My solution is not to bid an idiotic 1NT (did you catch that my 1NT is usually weaker than expected) or a bizarre constructive 2D. A fit jump 3D seems no-brainer.

On the ultra weak hand, if we play 1NT with the opponents passing throughout with two 12- counts, and get a bad score, rub of a bizarro world. And what partner passes a raise with 18-19?

I handle constructive clubs well.

I have a constructive raise, too, which handles even lower strength raises better.

I also avoid the Drury- enabled cheap lead directing overcall or double or competition. Granted, I lose preemption when ultraweak, but someone usually has bid already then, anyway.

[Bbradley62]

 rsteele, on 2012-August-29, 08:47, said:

You hold: T73, KQT9, 654, A97 vul vs not at imps (victory points) your pd, in 4th chair opens one heart, RHO passes. Do you or do you not use and form of Drury?

If you held that same hand and partner opened 1♥ in first chair, would you make a limit raise or a simple/constructive one?

[Trinidad]

 kenrexford, on 2012-August-30, 06:25, said:

On the first proposed hand, you have 12-13 in support. My solution is not to bid an idiotic 1NT (did you catch that my 1NT is usually weaker than expected) or a bizarre constructive 2D. A fit jump 3D seems no-brainer.

Fine. So in real life you use 3 fit showing jumps as well as a non forcing "forcing 1NT" for hands were others just bid Drury.

Rik

[billw55]

I see a couple of comments from strong players about the ability to stop in 2♥. Which is true, but why is this a consideration? Doesn't bidding 2♥ also allow us to stop in 2♥?

My own thoughts are that this is a 4333 9-count which is just a max 2♥ call for me. In fact with this shape and already holding the KQT of trump, I suspect that usually the fourth trump is not adding a trick. Are we really missing game that often if partner has a normal sub-invitational opener?

Isn't it ok to just have a max sometimes?

[rsteele]

 MickyB, on 2012-August-29, 14:40, said:

I don't understand the aversion to Drury after a 4th seat opening. I'd play Drury opposite 1st+2nd seat openings if I knew I wouldn't pick up a GF hand with clubs, instead I have to make do with 1M:2M constructive and putting my weak raises through 1N.

And yes, the actual hand is an obvious Drury bid.

It might interest you to know that Barry Crane did use Drury after 1st and 2nd seat openers

[gwnn]

 billw55, on 2012-August-30, 08:21, said:

I see a couple of comments from strong players about the ability to stop in 2♥. Which is true, but why is this a consideration? Doesn't bidding 2♥ also allow us to stop in 2♥?

My own thoughts are that this is a 4333 9-count which is just a max 2♥ call for me. In fact with this shape and already holding the KQT of trump, I suspect that usually the fourth trump is not adding a trick. Are we really missing game that often if partner has a normal sub-invitational opener?

Isn't it ok to just have a max sometimes?

Responder's 2C can bear a wider range (than whatever your non-passed hand limit raise is) because there are these two sequences:

1H-2C
2D-2H=9-10, semi invite

1H-2C
2D-(not 2H)=11-12, real invite

[Trinidad]

 billw55, on 2012-August-30, 08:21, said:

I see a couple of comments from strong players about the ability to stop in 2♥. Which is true, but why is this a consideration? Doesn't bidding 2♥ also allow us to stop in 2♥?

My own thoughts are that this is a 4333 9-count which is just a max 2♥ call for me. In fact with this shape and already holding the KQT of trump, I suspect that usually the fourth trump is not adding a trick. Are we really missing game that often if partner has a normal sub-invitational opener?

Isn't it ok to just have a max sometimes?

Of course, it is ok to have a maximum sometimes. If you don't like your hand, you might even have more than a maximum. But I think that you aren't fully aware of what a single raise shows and what a Drury bid shows.

When you play Drury, you should devide the range 4-12 HCP into two parts. One part is for the single raise, the other for the Drury raise. The Drury raise can be somewhat larger since there is more bidding room. Assuming that the direct single raise will take care of the weaker range, this will leave 4-7 for the weak range and 8-12 for the Drury range.

Seen in that light, a 9HCP hand is a queen more than a maximum for a single raise. In fact, I think the hand is maximal for the auction:
Pass-1♥; 2♣-2♦; 2♥.

Rik

[aguahombre]

"leakage" comes to mind. We use 2C with a 9-10 flat to tell the table we would be accepting game tries. Maybe pard doesn't have a game try. We can show a hand which would accept game tries by accepting game tries.

[MickyB]

 aguahombre, on 2012-August-30, 09:54, said:

"leakage" comes to mind. We use 2C with a 9-10 flat to tell the table we would be accepting game tries. Maybe pard doesn't have a game try. We can show a hand which would accept game tries by accepting game tries.

And who knows, maybe if you bid 1H:2H, 3C:2H on a hand where I'd bid 1H:2H, P, oppo will accept it. You'll still have told the table about opener's clubs though. What were you saying about "leakage"?

[kenrexford]

 Trinidad, on 2012-August-30, 07:41, said:

Fine. So in real life you use 3 fit showing jumps as well as a non forcing "forcing 1NT" for hands were others just bid Drury.

Rik

Not at all. Not sure why you keep getting this part off.

With a fit and non-constructive (maybe 5 to a bad 7 HCP), I bid semi-forcing 1NT.

With a fit and constructive, I raise.

With a fit and better than constructive, I must be unbalanced to have not opened, such that I always will have a fit bid of some type.

I would never bid 1NT with a fit with a hand where others would bid Drury.


So, my way I tell partner what I have. Your way, you use an artificial bid to delay telling him, taking away the natural and useful meaning. On hands where you would bid Drury and then pass, I simply raise.

[kenrexford]

 rsteele, on 2012-August-30, 09:23, said:

It might interest you to know that Barry Crane did use Drury after 1st and 2nd seat openers

That makes more sense to me than after 4th seat openings, BTW.

[kenrexford]

 Trinidad, on 2012-August-30, 09:53, said:

Of course, it is ok to have a maximum sometimes. If you don't like your hand, you might even have more than a maximum. But I think that you aren't fully aware of what a single raise shows and what a Drury bid shows.

When you play Drury, you should devide the range 4-12 HCP into two parts. One part is for the single raise, the other for the Drury raise. The Drury raise can be somewhat larger since there is more bidding room. Assuming that the direct single raise will take care of the weaker range, this will leave 4-7 for the weak range and 8-12 for the Drury range.

Seen in that light, a 9HCP hand is a queen more than a maximum for a single raise. In fact, I think the hand is maximal for the auction:
Pass-1♥; 2♣-2♦; 2♥.

Rik

A 4-12 range? I divide part of that (11-12) into not having passed earlier. So, now your range is 4-10. Of course, if you add in distribution, you get back to 4-12, perhaps.

But, you are missing something, namely the fit-jump.

[aguahombre]

 MickyB, on 2012-August-30, 09:59, said:

And who knows, maybe if you bid 1H:2H, 3C:2H on a hand where I'd bid 1H:2H, P, oppo will accept it. You'll still have told the table about opener's clubs though. What were you saying about "leakage"?

I don't understand the part about insufficient bids, but I don't need to. I suppose if partner makes a certain type of game try, there will be leakage depending on what your different tries look like. However, if you agree to perpetrate Drury with this hand you will have to employ some methods of trying for game by opener anyway since you don't have a game try, yourself --- which will result in leakage.

[kenrexford]

I mean, isn't this really simple?

With 5-7, Drury folks beat non-Drury to 2♥.
With 8-10, non-Drury folks beat Drury folks to 2♥.
With 11+ because of shape, non-Drury folks get to the point via fit jumps faster than the Drury folks.

With club hands, non-Drury folks have no problems, but Drury folks bid 1NT and have major problems.

Drury folks gain when they get to do whatever their jump shifts show, if they show something useful that cannot be shown as effectively by a 2/1.

[MickyB]

 aguahombre, on 2012-August-30, 10:30, said:

I don't understand the part about insufficient bids, but I don't need to. I suppose if partner makes a certain type of game try, there will be leakage depending on what your different tries look like. However, if you agree to perpetrate Drury with this hand you will have to employ some methods of trying for game by opener anyway since you don't have a game try, yourself --- which will result in leakage.

I was ever-so-subtly pointing out that 1H:2H, 3C:3H will result in going off in part-score more often than 1H:2C!, 2D!:2H.

Last post itt

[CSGibson]

 Mbodell, on 2012-August-30, 01:35, said:

... When I think limit raise I think 8 LTC and expect partner to play me for that strength. So my gut reaction with this hand, which is 9 LTC, is to just bid 2♥...

I've never understood this LTC opposite LTC evaluation. It seems neither accurate nor intuitive. I much prefer LTC opposite cover cards when you have a known fit.

For example, opposite heart opening hand, this hand has at least 3 "sure" covers - the KQ of trump and the outside ace are known to be working, assuming no voids (which seems reasonable). This hand might even cover a 3rd round spade loser, but that is more of a subtle adjustment, rather than an outright cover for me. Either way, if partner has a 5 or 6 loser hand, I definitely want to be in game. If he has a 7 loser hand, he won't typically accept a limit raise, but I might want to be in game anyway depending on the spade position.