[barmar]

 lamford, on 2012-September-19, 15:52, said:

Indeed. One is a "sudden short blow" and the other is a "quick light blow". I am pleased that you can tell them apart so easily. Perhaps the pass and alert cards should be dispensed with and one should knock for a pass and tap for an alert, or is it knock for an alert and tap for a pass?

Another difference is that the alert takes place when his partner bids, while pass is at the player's own turn.

Quote

More relevantly, how would you rule if South had knocked or tapped instead of using an (absent) alert card, and West had passed and led during the auction?

I would rule that he passed out of turn (since it was East's bid) and apply Law 24 regarding the card prematurely led.

[Cyberyeti]

 barmar, on 2012-September-20, 09:11, said:

Another difference is that the alert takes place when his partner bids, while pass is at the player's own turn.

Except that 2N-P-3N is one of those auctions where the next hand often passes fast, so it very well may be alerted on their own turn.

Quote

I would rule that he passed out of turn (since it was East's bid) and apply Law 24 regarding the card prematurely led.

See above, what if E has already passed before S alerts ?

[campboy]

 lamford, on 2012-September-19, 15:52, said:

Indeed. One is a "sudden short blow" and the other is a "quick light blow". I am pleased that you can tell them apart so easily.

I find it easy to tell a tap-to-indicate-pass from a knock-to-indicate-alert since people generally either tap a pass card with their fingertips producing little sound or knock the table with their knuckles producing a clear knocking sound.

[bluejak]

 barmar, on 2012-September-19, 14:51, said:

I think I've heard that in some places knocking on the table is the alert tradition, but I think it should be easy to tell a knock from a tap.

It is a matter of regulation in England/Wales. Alerts without bidding boxes are done by tapping the table. But games without bidding boxes are pretty rare.

I played about 5 years ago in the Donegal Congress with an American friend. After the two main events were over there was a Mixed Pairs, but because the bidding boxes had been borrowed, they were taken away before this. I found a female partner, but playing without bidding boxes was a sore trial - it must have been years since the previous time!

 campboy, on 2012-September-20, 15:45, said:

I find it easy to tell a tap-to-indicate-pass from a knock-to-indicate-alert since people generally either tap a pass card with their fingertips producing little sound or knock the table with their knuckles producing a clear knocking sound.

Yes, I think there is no similarity.

[barmar]

 bluejak, on 2012-September-21, 08:00, said:

It is a matter of regulation in England/Wales. Alerts without bidding boxes are done by tapping the table. But games without bidding boxes are pretty rare.

I've never played in a place where alerts have been done by tapping the table. But my guess is that in such places it's not common to use taps to indicate final passes. So the ambiguity is not likely to occur.

[Sjoerds]

 blackshoe, on 2012-September-16, 09:27, said:

... Per Law 29A, North is now given the opportunity to accept West's POOT...

So you rule that West has POOT (Law 30) but I think you don't need that. Law 24B is clear. The card stays face-up, East must pass when it is his turn to call and the auction goes on.

[blackshoe]

 Sjoerds, on 2012-September-22, 09:42, said:

So you rule that West has POOT (Law 30) but I think you don't need that. Law 24B is clear. The card stays face-up, East must pass when it is his turn to call and the auction goes on.

So you would deny North the opportunity to accept or reject the POOT? Why? It is an infraction, and there's a law to handle it. I don't think you can just choose to ignore that.

[Sjoerds]

 blackshoe, on 2012-September-22, 10:36, said:

So you would deny North the opportunity to accept or reject the POOT? Why? It is an infraction, and there's a law to handle it. I don't think you can just choose to ignore that.

Agree .. I overlooked that he passed. I thought he led without passing.

[Quantumcat]

 bluejak, on 2012-September-21, 08:00, said:

It is a matter of regulation in England/Wales. Alerts without bidding boxes are done by tapping the table. But games without bidding boxes are pretty rare.

If you're not using bidding boxes, wouldn't you circle your partner's bid and say "alert"?

[gordontd]

 Quantumcat, on 2012-September-23, 01:25, said:

If you're not using bidding boxes, wouldn't you circle your partner's bid and say "alert"?

He specified England & Wales, where written bidding is not used.

[lamford]

 gordontd, on 2012-September-23, 04:38, said:

He specified England & Wales, where written bidding is not used.

It was from Pula actually, where bidding boxes were regularly incomplete, and alerts were often by a tap (on that subject we played a Dutch team (future World Champions) in San Remo who alerted by pointing to the bid without any touching of the table, certainly no "loud knock"). On this occasion, South was taking out the alert card as East was passing, and West jumped to the conclusion that it would be green. It turned out to be white with the word "alert" scribbled on it. So, you are right that written bidding was not in use, but only just.

[gordontd]

 lamford, on 2012-September-23, 16:53, said:

It was from Pula actually,

Follow the thread please. I was responding to someone who assumed written bidding, in a reply to David Stevenson, who had told us what the regulations say in England and Wales.