[jillybean]

I just need to vent before going back to the sectional today

Playing in a team game last night. 2 Gentlemen come to our table. As we shuffle the boards I say, would you mind if I looked at your card?, reach over and take my LHO's card.

It's incompletely filled out , a couple of ineligible convention names scribbled over where defense to NT and TO doubles should be. None of the carding section is completed at all. So I ask about their carding and get the reply “oh we just play standard and standard carding” The CC heading is empty, no description of general approach at all, I assume they are playing “standard”. I ask about discards, “Roman” , what's that? “Odd/Even”, please explain? LHO rolls his eyes and tells me odd is encouraging and even asks for the higher suit.” Ah, good So what do you play? I am asked. 2/1, standard carding and Odd/Even... before I can complete my explaination he chuckles and says why did you have to bother with all that? I try to tell him that “our O/E” is not the same as “their O/E” but he doesn’t want to listen.

Before we start I take another quick look at his CC and off we go. Several boards into the game I take another look at his card to check their minor opening responses, nothing is entered here but as the auction continues I don't need the information. In the second set his partner opens 1M, he responds 1nt which is announced as forcing. Oh! I grab his card again and take another look and say oh, that surprised me, you don't have 2/1 marked at all. LHO obviously pissed off with me now, glares and says his (partners) card has 2/1 on it, but he doesn't play it with this guy, gesturing towards his CC. I ask, this isn't the card you are playing with your partner here? “No, I just brought it along to put my score sheets in”.
A few more words were exchanged before I (regretfully) said well if you are going to be an ass $$$$...Director please.

Do I really have to go through all this to find out what methods my opponent’s are playing.

[TimG]

That's pretty funny. . .in an a$$hole sort of way.

[Phil]

You do not say what your hand was in either of these cases. Did it matter at the time what their bids meant? You could have asked for a review, and gone over the calls then.

I mean, I get testy when I try to play by the rules, and I see others show up with incomplete cc's, but my attitude is "well, if they don't know what their bids mean, the last thing I want to do is have a dialogue between the opponents so they can figure it out". If you can't stand it, just call the director.

[kenberg]

Discards: When I was first learning I sat at a table and asked about their carding. "Upside down revolving Roman discards". Ah hell, it's just two boards. Many years later I still don't know what that means.

I have had people explain that they played "Journalist leads" when in fact they played Jack denies a higher honor and a nine or ten show either nothing above or else the one directly above and one other above, but not a three card sequence.

One of my favorites was a very incompletely filled out card and very incomplete explanations. I summoned the director. They explained that they just didn't speak English very well and could not understand my questions. As play went on it became apparent that this language problem manifested it self only with regard to explaining the meaning of calls. Oh well.

I have come to take a relaxed view of all this, much as Phil suggests. Most opponents don't know what message to send anyway, so breaking their code is not essential.

[jillybean]

Probably good advice. Score sheet holders and a coasters for your coffee seem to be far more effective uses for the CC.
I will remember that today.

[Vampyr]

I cannot imagine being given an opponent's convention card that is not the one he is playing (or reaching for it myself and reading it, and not being told that it is not in use.)

It's too bad two identical CC's are not mandatory in the ACBL; if they were these guys could receive a PP at every table.

[Bbradley62]

 Vampyr, on 2012-November-10, 13:05, said:

It's too bad two identical CC's are not mandatory in the ACBL; if they were these guys could receive a PP at every table.

I thought the ACBL rule was that if the director determines that you convention cards are not filled out properly, you are required to play SAYC and standard carding until you have completed your cards to the director's satisfaction. Or did I imagine that?

[lalldonn]

 Bbradley62, on 2012-November-10, 13:41, said:

I thought the ACBL rule was that if the director determines that you convention cards are not filled out properly, you are required to play SAYC and standard carding until you have completed your cards to the director's satisfaction. Or did I imagine that?

Dumbest rule ever. Put a penalty of some kind in the rules (X mps/imps per round until you are in compliance), fine, but don't force them to play a system they might not even know. I don't think I know SAYC myself. But from what I know about SAYC, being forced to play it is a huge penalty even if you do know how.

And why isn't this thread in "Offline bridge"? Sorry just venting!

[Bbradley62]

Then, it is actually a rule, despite whatever dumbness?

[lalldonn]

Idunno just going by what you said. A quick googling got me this:

Quote

If a director determines that neither player has a substantially completed card, the partnership may only play conventions listed on the ACBL Limited Conventions chart and may only play standard carding. This restriction may be lifted by the director at the beginning of the next round once two completed cards have been approved by the director. Beginning with the second round after being notified about inadequately filled-out cards, the director will impose penalties. If only one substantially completed Convention Card is produced by a partnership, the director may give warnings or penalties at his/her discretion.

[Bbradley62]

Sitting at a f2f tournament, I wouldn't know what was on the ACBL Limited Conventions chart. Would most players?

[Vampyr]

 lalldonn, on 2012-November-10, 13:53, said:

Idunno just going by what you said. A quick googling got me (ACBL regulation)

Interesting. So only one player needs to have a correctly completed convention card. The regulation is mute on whether the other player can hand his opponents a convention card that shows what he plays with another player. I would be interested to know from the OP whether the director came down hard on these two clowns.

[blackshoe]

 Vampyr, on 2012-November-10, 13:05, said:

I cannot imagine being given an opponent's convention card that is not the one he is playing (or reaching for it myself and reading it, and not being told that it is not in use.)

It's too bad two identical CC's are not mandatory in the ACBL; if they were these guys could receive a PP at every table.

 Bbradley62, on 2012-November-10, 13:41, said:

I thought the ACBL rule was that if the director determines that you convention cards are not filled out properly, you are required to play SAYC and standard carding until you have completed your cards to the director's satisfaction. Or did I imagine that?

 lalldonn, on 2012-November-10, 13:46, said:

Dumbest rule ever. Put a penalty of some kind in the rules (X mps/imps per round until you are in compliance), fine, but don't force them to play a system they might not even know. I don't think I know SAYC myself. But from what I know about SAYC, being forced to play it is a huge penalty even if you do know how.

And why isn't this thread in "Offline bridge"? Sorry just venting!

 Bbradley62, on 2012-November-10, 13:58, said:

Sitting at a f2f tournament, I wouldn't know what was on the ACBL Limited Conventions chart. Would most players?

From the ACBL General Conditions of Contest for 2012:

Quote

5. Each member of a partnership MUST have a completely filled out convention card available for the opponents.
• Both cards of a partnership must be identical and include the first and last names of each member of the partnership.
• If a Director determines that neither player has a substantially completed card, the partnership may only play the ACBL Standard American Yellow Card (SAYC) and may only use standard carding. This restriction may only be lifted at the beginning of a subsequent round after Convention Cards have been properly prepared and approved by the Director. Further, the partnership will receive a 1/6 Board Match Point Penalty for each Board played, commencing with the next round and continuing until the restriction is lifted. In IMP team games penalties shall be at the discretion of the Director.
• If the Director determines the partnership has at least one substantially completed Convention Card but has not fully complied with ACBL regulations, then the director may give warnings or, if the deficiency is not corrected in a timely manner given the circumstances, assign such penalties as he deems to be appropriate.

The reference Justin found to the Limited Convention Chart is obsolete.

[Vampyr]

 blackshoe, on 2012-November-10, 14:48, said:

From the ACBL General Conditions of Contest for 2012:

From what I gather in these forums, this is not very well enforced.

[blackshoe]

One could argue that all ACBL regulations are "not very well enforced".

[barmar]

 lalldonn, on 2012-November-10, 13:46, said:

And why isn't this thread in "Offline bridge"? Sorry just venting!

Agreed. Moved.

[jillybean]

Quote

5. Each member of a partnership MUST have a completely filled out convention card available for the opponents.

Must ?

[RunemPard]

Little off topic...When playing at our club, I normally toss my cards in front of each player as I go to sit. The reaction to this is normally a stare as if I am expecting them to read it. These are normally the players who have one card which is either under the bridgemate or in their shirt pocket. Asking for access to this card is not only insulting, but extremely rude.

[Vampyr]

Our regulation requires the exchange of convention cards, and this is done routinely...

However, "tossing the cards in front of each player" is kind of rude. You might get a better reaction if you just put the card under the bidding box or on the side table where your opponent has easy access to it if he chooses to look at it.

[aguahombre]

 Vampyr, on 2012-November-11, 11:05, said:

Our regulation requires the exchange of convention cards, and this is done routinely...

However, "tossing the cards in front of each player" is kind of rude. You might get a better reaction if you just put the card under the bidding box or on the side table where your opponent has easy access to it if he chooses to look at it.

I think RunemPard's use of "rude" was referring to the act of requesting access to the opponents' card. And he must have meant that is wrongly perceived as insulting or rude where he plays; it certainly is neither of those things.