[Stephen Tu]

---

MP.
none vul
East deals.
(p)-p-(1♦)-p;
(2♦!)-?

2♦ is inverted.

[Codo]

2 ♥ looks really obvious opposite a partner with brain. You did not open, not even a weak two. You do not double. So what do you hold? Obviously 5 Hearts and a second 4 card suit- else you may have a two suiter bid in the bag. If you do not open weak twos with a side four card suit, partner may well play you for a 4/6 hand in the majors too. Okay.

[Phil]

Codo, on 2012-November-28, 03:30, said:

2 ♥ looks really obvious opposite a partner with brain. You did not open, not even a weak two. You do not double. So what do you hold? Obviously 5 Hearts and a second 4 card suit- else you may have a two suiter bid in the bag. If you do not open weak twos with a side four card suit, partner may well play you for a 4/6 hand in the majors too. Okay.

xx AKJTx xxx xxx?

[Cyberyeti]

Don't have this problem, opened 1♥.

[broze]

deleted - double post

[broze]

Cyberyeti, on 2012-November-28, 13:24, said:

Don't have this problem, opened 1♥.

Ah, so would I have, but what did you vote for in the poll?

[Zelandakh]

broze, on 2012-November-28, 16:33, said:

Ah, so would I have, but what did you vote for in the poll?

I am vetoing the poll since none of the answers fit. I open 1♥ but do not think pass was ridiculous. Was there a need to add an extra tagline to one of the poll options?

[gwnn]

Zelandakh, on 2012-November-29, 02:32, said:

I am vetoing the poll since none of the answers fit. I open 1♥ but do not think pass was ridiculous. Was there a need to add an extra tagline to one of the poll options?

I think so. If you don't think it's ridiculous, it means that with a similar hand you could see yourself pass. In that case you should answer the surrogate question 'what would you do with that similar hand?'

[Zelandakh]

Not at all. I would always open 1♥. However, I can understand not doing so. It is a style thing, not a matter of 1♥ being obvious, reasonable or ridiculous.

[gwnn]

Zelandakh, on 2012-November-29, 03:33, said:

Not at all. I would always open 1♥. However, I can understand not doing so. It is a style thing, not a matter of 1♥ being obvious, reasonable or ridiculous.

Not at all what? There is no hand at all that is similar to this hand and you would see yourself pass?

[Zelandakh]

What is similar? I would certainly pass with K752/65432/KJ/KJ but do not consider these hands similar. Yes, there is a line between a pass and an opening. Where that line falls depends on which system I am playing. As a junior I played a system where this was always a pass; now I play systems where this is always an opening bid. If you give me a different hand that yields a different answer then it is not similar to me since it falls into a different category within the context of the bidding system being used.

Nonetheless, the question is "Your action?" My action is to open 1♥ without regarding passing as "ridiculous". Therefore there is no answer which represents my position. I wonder how many of those that voted for opening really think passing is ridiculous and how many of those that voted for some other action would have preferred to open 1♥. Would it not have been better to set up 2 (public) polls, the first "Which call would you make in first seat?" and the second "Given you passed initially, what would you do now?", which includes an option for "I cannot live with an initial pass"? Otherwise the poll results are essentially meaningless.

[rhm]

I think passing this hand second seat is good Bridge.
The hand is semi balanced, has no first round controls, the diamond values should be downgraded, all in all not the type of hand,where I would want to open light.
For me DBL looks right. DBL is obviously about majors in this sequence not about clubs.
If partner bids 3♣ nevertheless, he will have a long weak suit.
I do not understand 2♥. God save me from the weird brains, who believe this must show spades.

Rainer Herrmann

[gwnn]

I was more thinking about Kxxx KJxxx Kx xx or Kxxx Kxxxx Kx xx. I imagine that if you passed one of those hands and gave your action on those slightly different hands, it would be more useful to OP.

Of course sometimes you are put in a position where the initial action is so far off whatever you would normally do that you cannot emphasize at all with the ensuing situation (in other words: the alternative hands would be so far from the original one that OP would not find your preferences on them useful).

Stephen: sorry for semi-derailing this thread. I would probably pass in first seat and bid 2H now. I don't like x with only xx of clubs, probably I would do it with xx/KJ in the minors.

[helene_t]

Codo, on 2012-November-28, 03:30, said:

2 ♥ looks really obvious opposite a partner with brain. You did not open, not even a weak two. You do not double. So what do you hold? Obviously 5 Hearts and a second 4 card suit- else you may have a two suiter bid in the bag. If you do not open weak twos with a side four card suit, partner may well play you for a 4/6 hand in the majors too. Okay.

I upvoted this post but thinking more about it I am not sure if this is really so. We failed to preempt in 2nd seat where preempts should be disciplined so we could have all kinds of flawed preempt hands. 5332, 6322 with a too low O/D. Even if we do have a second suit, that suit might be diamonds.

[Cyberyeti]

broze, on 2012-November-28, 16:33, said:

Ah, so would I have, but what did you vote for in the poll?

I couldn't vote in the poll as I've already denied holding this hand. I'd even think about opening this hand without J♦.

It's much more dangerous to compete now than it was to open, it's not like you have a suit where 1♦-P-2♦-2♥-X (or P-P-X-P-P-P) is that unlikely and if they play a penalty X over this, it's very descriptive as a good 4 card holding so easy for the raiser to judge.

Also depends slightly on what the invert shows (GF or not, possible 4M or not) and how many diamonds opener showed.

I suppose I'd pass now if you brought me to the table having passed initially, particularly if 2♦ was GF, I have a very poor hand to save at game level. Plus playing what I do, partner will have WJOd on any hand I want to save (we do this very freely, weaker and shorter than most people).

[PhilKing]

Double. This hand is often about whether we can compete to three of a major over 3♦. And note that the 2♦ bid is by a passed hand.

[straube]

rhm, on 2012-November-29, 05:58, said:

I think passing this hand second seat is good Bridge.
The hand is semi balanced, has no first round controls, the diamond values should be downgraded, all in all not the type of hand,where I would want to open light.
For me DBL looks right. DBL is obviously about majors in this sequence not about clubs.
If partner bids 3♣ nevertheless, he will have a long weak suit.
I do not understand 2♥. God save me from the weird brains, who believe this must show spades.

Rainer Herrmann

I agree. Since I'm a passed hand and (of second importance) the opponent's have shown strength, double by me should not show interest in the 3-level. I think partner should expect a 5S/5H on most days and not this hand (since I would have opened it).
I would expect partner with 3/3 in the majors to choose hearts.

[the hog]

Phil, on 2012-November-28, 09:53, said:

xx AKJTx xxx xxx?

NV this is a weak 2.

[rhm]

the hog, on 2012-November-30, 00:26, said:

NV this is a weak 2.

Perhaps.
I would overcall 2♥ NV with ♠Ax, ♥KJTxx, ♦xxxx, ♣xx

Rainer Herrmann