[mitsguy]

I know that when a strong hand is opened 2♣, most of the time (unless responder has a strong hand) responder will make a waiting bid 2♦. If opener has an unbalanced hand, he/she then bids his/her longest suit: a major suit at the 2 level or a minor suit at the 3 level. I am confused, however, about how the auction continues from there, especially if opener bids a minor suit.

First of all, I know that if opener bids a major suit (at the 2 level), responder has the following options:
Raise to 4 level: support for opener's major, but weak hand (will probably end auction)
Raise to 3 level: support for opener's major, decent hand (slam is possible)
Cheapest minor (3♣ in this case): second negative, weak hand, no support for opener's major
New suit: No support for opener's major, but a decent hand (not as strong if you had bid that suit initially)

My 2 questions are:
1. What do you do if you have a decent hand but no support for opener's major, but clubs are the suit that you want to show? You can't bid 3♣ since that is the second negative. Is there an artificial way to show clubs, or is it not possible to show clubs in that case?

2. What does it mean if responder bids 2NT in response to opener's major?

What I really don't understand is, how does the bidding continue if opener bids a minor (which must be at the 3 level).

1. With a fit for opener's minor, what do you do? The cheapest level that you could raise to would be the 4 level, which would bypass 3NT. Is there another way to show a fit with either a weak hand or a decent hand?

2. If opener bids clubs, I know that 3♦ would be the cheapest minor second negative. If opener bids diamonds, I know you have to go to 3NT to show a weak hand with no support.

3. If opener bids clubs, if you have a decent hand but no support, I assume you can bid a major suit. Am I correct? Is there a way to show diamonds? I assume not. Would responder ever bid 3NT in response to 3♣?

4. If opener bids diamonds, if you have a decent hand but no support, I assume you can bid a major suit. Am I correct? Is there a way to show clubs? I assume not.

Thank you for your help.

[Stephen Tu]

mitsguy, on 2013-February-01, 11:27, said:

My 2 questions are:
1. What do you do if you have a decent hand but no support for opener's major, but clubs are the suit that you want to show? You can't bid 3♣ since that is the second negative. Is there an artificial way to show clubs, or is it not possible to show clubs in that case?

If you have no other reasonable bid (i.e. 2nt looks unpalatable due to shortness + weakness in outside suits), you may have to bid 3♣ anyways, and catch up on strength later. It's a forcing bid, so you'll get another chance to do something. Although partner may think you might be very weak, he has to consider that clubs with a bit stronger hand may be one of your hand types.

But because of this ambiguity, you probably want to make positive responses with clubs (2♣-p-3♣) a bit more liberally in the slam zone, not have overly strict requirements like requiring 2/3 top honors and a 6+ suit, you might want to allow a direct 3♣ on lesser suits. And/or have a positive response to 2♣ rather than lumping everything into 2♦, one can bid 2♣ - 2nt more liberally than most people do, or what I prefer, swap the 2♥ and 2nt responses so that 2nt shows hearts and 2♥ is an artificial positive.

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2. What does it mean if responder bids 2NT in response to opener's major?

No 3+cd fit, moderate strength (stronger than 2nd neg response), not 5+ cds in the other major.

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What I really don't understand is, how does the bidding continue if opener bids a minor (which must be at the 3 level).

1. With a fit for opener's minor, what do you do? The cheapest level that you could raise to would be the 4 level, which would bypass 3NT. Is there another way to show a fit with either a weak hand or a decent hand?

Can't show a fit below 3nt. This is one of the reasons that opener should be keeping his minor suit 2c openers up to strength, you want it so that if responder has a fit and values you are close to slam, and 5m should be safe barring horrendous breaks. Minor suit 2c openers should be at least a trick stronger than major openers, with lesser hands there is the option of opening 1, and the option of rebidding 2nt with 6322 hands.

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2. If opener bids clubs, I know that 3♦ would be the cheapest minor second negative. If opener bids diamonds, I know you have to go to 3NT to show a weak hand with no support.

This is the usual agreement, but I've come to believe that 3♦ shouldn't be 2nd negative, and that it should just be a catchall (saying nothing in particular) catering to opener showing a 4 cd major, 4-6 club/major hands, allowing 4-4 major fit to be found. And that responder should bid a 5 cd major even when broke, to find a 5-3 fit. 2nd negatives cater to stopping below game, which might make a bit of sense with a major 9 trick hand. But when opener has 10 trick hand, I think finding best playable game is more important than stopping in 4♣ when responder has nothing.

[mikeh]

Many of the problems of which you speak can be eliminated by adopting a style used by many (tho by no means all) good players, including intermediates, advanced and experts. It is a method that is, at least imo, actually easier to use than the 'cheaper minor 2nd negative style' that you currently play.

Use 2♦ as waiting, as before, but with this exception: it promises a positive response, so it creates a gf. Different people use different criteria. My personal choice is that 2♦ promises an Ace or a King. One may have more, but one cannot have less.

For hands that have no Ace or King, bid 2♥. This is often referred to as '2♥ immediate negative'.

Note that some players will respond 2♦ with no A or K provided they have, say, 6 hcp, thus limiting 2♥ to a hand that has fewer than 6 hcp AND has no A or K. Choose whatever makes sense to you.

Experience suggests that the stronger hand should be on play as much as possible, and that having responder bid a natural 2N offends that suggestion. You can deal with it by using 2N to show the hand that had a positive response in hearts,

So after 2♣, responder's bids mean:

- 2♦: generic game force, denies the ability to make any other kind of positive response
- 2♥: immediate negative: says nothing about distribution
- 2♠: positive response with 5+ spades
- 2N: positive response with 5+ hearts
- 3m: positive response with 5+ in the bid minor


And so on, as per your current agreements. Note that there are fairly simple and more powerful responding methods that incorporate 2♥ immediate negative that can be added as your experience and comfort level increases.

The idea is to do away with the cumbersome and sometimes simply not available 'cheaper minor second negative'.

Now, if opener rebids, say, 2♠ over 2 ♥ or ♦, responder's 3♣ is natural: after 2♦ it is forcing and after 2♥ it is not.

You raised the auction in which opener rebids 3♣ and suggested that 3♦ is the cheaper minor negative, which is correct as you play it currently. If you already know about positive/negative, you can and imo should use 3♦ here as a 'stall', to allow opener to bid 3M with a 4 card majors or to declare 3N. You lose the ability to show diamonds below 3N, but I have played this method for some 30 years or more and can honestly say that I don't think I've ever had this arise as a drawback.

[mitsguy]

Stephen Tu, on 2013-February-01, 13:00, said:

Can't show a fit below 3nt. This is one of the reasons that opener should be keeping his minor suit 2c openers up to strength, you want it so that if responder has a fit and values you are close to slam, and 5m should be safe barring horrendous breaks. Minor suit 2c openers should be at least a trick stronger than major openers, with lesser hands there is the option of opening 1, and the option of rebidding 2nt with 6322 hands.

Thanks for your help. I understand now how Strong 2♣ works when opener bids a major, but I'm still not sure how it works when opener bids a minor. It seems it's different depending on whether opener bids clubs or diamonds. Maybe I need to think of it separately.

If the opener bids 3♣, then it seems that the responder's choices are:

Weak hand, no support: Bid 3♦, cheapest minor second negative. Opener will most likely sign off in 3NT, although, at least in theory, he/she can sign off in 4♣.

Weak hand, support: I'm guessing you would still bid 3♦. You don't want to jump to 5♣, and you don't want to bypass the likely contract of 3NT.

Decent hand, no support: I'm guessing you can bid 3 of a major. What about 3NT? I'm guessing no way to show diamonds.

Decent hand, support: I'm guessing you can bid 4♣, since slam is possible. Is there any way for opener to sign off in 4NT if slam isn't possible and you don't want to play 5♣. I assume 4NT is blackwood.

If the opener bids 3♦, then it seems the responder's choices are:

Weak hand, no support: Bid 3NT, most likely ending the auction

Weak hand, support: I'm guessing still 3NT.

Decent hand, no support: I'm guessing you can bid 3 of a major. Maybe 4 clubs?

Decent hand, support: I'm guessing you can bid 4♦ since slam is possible. Is there any way for opener to sign off in 4NT if slam isn't possible and you don't want to play 5♦? Again, I assume 4NT is blackwood.

Thanks again for your help.

[mitsguy]

mikeh, on 2013-February-01, 15:59, said:

Many of the problems of which you speak can be eliminated by adopting a style used by many (tho by no means all) good players, including intermediates, advanced and experts. It is a method that is, at least imo, actually easier to use than the 'cheaper minor 2nd negative style' that you currently play.

Use 2♦ as waiting, as before, but with this exception: it promises a positive response, so it creates a gf. Different people use different criteria. My personal choice is that 2♦ promises an Ace or a King. One may have more, but one cannot have less.

For hands that have no Ace or King, bid 2♥. This is often referred to as '2♥ immediate negative'.

Note that some players will respond 2♦ with no A or K provided they have, say, 6 hcp, thus limiting 2♥ to a hand that has fewer than 6 hcp AND has no A or K. Choose whatever makes sense to you.

Experience suggests that the stronger hand should be on play as much as possible, and that having responder bid a natural 2N offends that suggestion. You can deal with it by using 2N to show the hand that had a positive response in hearts,

Thanks for the suggestion. I've seen that convention before, and I'm always surprised to see it, since it has a very good chance of having a very weak hand as the declarer in a hearts contract. If the opener has a strong enough hand to open 2♣, then there is a very good chance that responder has a very weak hand, and would bid 2♥. Most likely, you are headed for a game contract, most likely, either 3NT, 4♥, or 4♠, so you have a good chance of the weak side being declarer. Isn't that best to be avoided?

[mitsguy]

One more question, if on the first bid, responder bids 2NT, showing 8 or more points and a balanced hand, are conventions such as Stayman and Jacoby Transfers on? If not, how does the bidding continue from there? Thanks.

[Stephen Tu]

mitsguy, on 2013-February-01, 21:29, said:

Weak hand, no support: Bid 3♦, cheapest minor second negative. Opener will most likely sign off in 3NT, although, at least in theory, he/she can sign off in 4♣.
Weak hand, support: I'm guessing you would still bid 3♦. You don't want to jump to 5♣, and you don't want to bypass the likely contract of 3NT.
Decent hand, no support: I'm guessing you can bid 3 of a major. What about 3NT? I'm guessing no way to show diamonds.

My suggestion is that 3♦ is just non-descript mark-time, not necessarily 2nd negative. 3 of a major shows 5+ suit catering to getting to a major suit fit/game, even when responder really weak. So:
4♦/4♥/4♠ = spl raise of clubs
4♣ = good hand for clubs, no splinter
3nt = not great hand for clubs, no 4 cd major, some stoppers
3M = 5 cd major, any strength, limited by not giving positive response immediately after 2♣
3♦ = everything else. Opener rebids naturally

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Decent hand, support: I'm guessing you can bid 4♣, since slam is possible. Is there any way for opener to sign off in 4NT if slam isn't possible and you don't want to play 5♣. I assume 4NT is blackwood.

With an unbalanced club hand opposite a raise, you probably have to give up on the idea of escaping to 4nt. With notrumpy hands opener had the option of rebidding 2nt/3nt on their 6322. I suppose it's possible to agree that after 2c-2d-3c-4c, that opener's 4 level rebid shows a singleton, after which responder can suggest 4nt to play with wasted garbage stoppers opposite (KQT etc.), not allow responder to blkwood on this sequence, and reach 4nt matchpoint nirvana that way. But this really isn't a novice/beginner level agreement, even advanced players would rarely discuss this auction in detail given the extreme infrequency of it ever coming up.

Diamond hands are similar idea, major suit bids cater to reaching 5-3 major fit, 3nt unfortunately has to be catchall due to lack of space. 4-4 major fits are going to be lost absent playing the style where opener jumps to 3M (2c-2d-3M) with 4 cd major and longer diamonds, unless opener willing to chance 4M over 3nt and give choice of 4M/4nt/5d. Again with distributional hand opposite fit you have to often give up on playing 4nt.

mitsguy, on 2013-February-01, 21:32, said:

[2h double negative suggested]
Thanks for the suggestion. I've seen that convention before, and I'm always surprised to see it, since it has a very good chance of having a very weak hand as the declarer in a hearts contract. If the opener has a strong enough hand to open 2♣, then there is a very good chance that responder has a very weak hand, and would bid 2♥. Most likely, you are headed for a game contract, most likely, either 3NT, 4♥, or 4♠, so you have a good chance of the weak side being declarer. Isn't that best to be avoided?

Don't overrate positional advantages. Although you do have the weak hand declaring heart contracts, it still requires opener to have a vulnerable side suit holding that can be pitched on something *and* the opp's honors in the suit being offside *and* opening leader finding the lead. A lot of the time it simply just doesn't make a difference. Getting to the best strain is more important than getting which side it's played from, which only makes a difference some of the time.

mitsguy, on 2013-February-01, 21:33, said:

One more question, if on the first bid, responder bids 2NT, showing 8 or more points and a balanced hand, are conventions such as Stayman and Jacoby Transfers on? If not, how does the bidding continue from there? Thanks.

If you are playing natural 2nt response, opener should probably not be playing transfers, as you want the stronger hand declaring and want opener to be able to bid diamonds naturally at the 3 level conserving space. But opener should be able to bid 3c with or without clubs to find a 4 cd major from responder. Other than showing 4 cd major over 3c, 3nt rebid by responder would be no fit, limited (8-9ish), suits should be cue-bids with support of opener's suit.

[mikeh]

mitsguy, on 2013-February-01, 21:32, said:

Thanks for the suggestion. I've seen that convention before, and I'm always surprised to see it, since it has a very good chance of having a very weak hand as the declarer in a hearts contract. If the opener has a strong enough hand to open 2♣, then there is a very good chance that responder has a very weak hand, and would bid 2♥. Most likely, you are headed for a game contract, most likely, either 3NT, 4♥, or 4♠, so you have a good chance of the weak side being declarer. Isn't that best to be avoided?

Firstly, partner will usually hold enough to allow him some other response. Assume, say, 23 hcp for the 2♣ opener, and this seems generous to me: partner's expected hcp will average almost 6, and all he needs is a King to bid 2♦. Secondly, opener's rebid will be in hearts only a small percentage of the time even then. So in total, this issue arises infrequently.

Thirdly, wrongsiding or getting too high will occur on only a fraction of those hands. Wrongsiding is more of an issue in notrump than it is in a suit contract, tho it is an issue in both.

What this means is that the problem you fear arises very infrequently.

Finally, every method has flaws. This is one of the flaws for the 2♥ negative. You identified some of the flaws of the cheaper minor second negative approach. The cumulative experience of the 2♥ method seems to be, and my personal experience certainly is, that on balance 2♥ is significantly...not just a little bit...superior to the cheaper minor, not because it is flawless (nothing is) but because its pros outweigh its cons.

[mitsguy]

Thanks, everyone. I guess I should have said that I was asking about the standard approach for responding with Strong 2♣. SAYC says almost nothing at all about it. Does that mean that there is no standard, and that it's up to an individual partnership to come up with their own agreements? What if you are playing online with someone you don't normally play with? Or, is there some standard? If so, what is it? Thanks.

[mitsguy]

One more question: after Strong 2♣, assuming responder bids 2♦, what do you do if your hand is 4-4-4-1 shape? You can't bid 2NT or 3NT, since that would show a balanced hand. And bidding 2♥, 2♠, 3♣, or 3♦ would show a 4 card suit. Is that just a matter of judgment, and you have to decide which bid is the least inaccurate? Or is there an official answer, such as, treating it as balanced, or opening your lowest ranking 4 card suit, or your strongest 4 card suit? Thanks.

[Stephen Tu]

mitsguy, on 2013-February-02, 14:25, said:

Thanks, everyone. I guess I should have said that I was asking about the standard approach for responding with Strong 2♣. SAYC says almost nothing at all about it. Does that mean that there is no standard, and that it's up to an individual partnership to come up with their own agreements? What if you are playing online with someone you don't normally play with? Or, is there some standard? If so, what is it? Thanks.

SAYC is a bare bones, incoherent hodgepodge of semi-popular treatments that don't all mesh particularly well together. It was a poorly constructed template for limited convention games & individuals that got adopted for online play since it was small enough to be read in a reasonable amount of time and vaguely playable though far from optimal. Don't take it as a "standard" or a blueprint of what good bridge players would do. It's merely a starting point for a fast pickup game online so that one can muddle through and get practice. Playing online you are going to have lots of accidents, you have to shrug them off. Getting good at bridge eventually means finding regular partners and having concrete agreements.

As for the 2♣ auctions discussed here, these are somewhat advanced agreements and rarely come up, so there is no standard, it's up to partnerships to define them. If you play the way I advocate, you'd rarely get some place ridiculous, although I'd avoid splintering with 2c-2d-3m-4X sequences with random pickup partners. At most you'd have a little more in high cards than partner might think after 2c-2d-3c-3d if he thinks that this is 2nd neg (then again SAYC doesn't say anything about 2nd negs), or perhaps a little less after 2c-2d-3c-3M. But you'll probably get to a reasonable strain and a makeable contract.

mitsguy, on 2013-February-02, 14:29, said:

One more question: after Strong 2♣, assuming responder bids 2♦, what do you do if your hand is 4-4-4-1 shape? You can't bid 2NT or 3NT, since that would show a balanced hand. And bidding 2♥, 2♠, 3♣, or 3♦ would show a 4 card suit. Is that just a matter of judgment, and you have to decide which bid is the least inaccurate? Or is there an official answer, such as, treating it as balanced, or opening your lowest ranking 4 card suit, or your strongest 4 card suit? Thanks.

Strong 4441 hands are a well-known nightmare for any system. It's enough of a problem that some systems devote a bid (Roman 2d, or as one option in a multi-2d opener) specifically to show them. Thankfully the pattern is rare. Absent that, you are basically left with the options of:
1. Open 1m and just hope some one keeps the auction alive. This is a reasonable option up to maybe 22 hcp, 4441 is a bad pattern for taking tricks anyway.
2. Treat hand as balanced 4432, more attractive when singleton is an honor, in case partner insists on playing the suit, hopefully 6-1 fit is OK with your solidifying honor.
3. Rebid your major and pretend that it's 5 cd suit, or that when you end in 4-3 M fit that you have enough power that you make anyway.