[Cyberyeti]

 barsikb, on 2013-February-11, 05:07, said:

Thank you for all the replies.

Sorry, I need to get back to basics on this.

1♠-2♣
After that presuming we are not using 2/1 but SAYC, what should opener bid?

Isn't 2NT showing less than 15HCP?

What would North bid after partner's 2♣ if his hand was AKJ85,87,KJ2,953 in both SAYC and 2/1?

Not sure what 1♠-2♣-2N shows in SAYC, if you were referring to my auction, 2N is 15+ because I play a weak no trump.

[barsikb]

Forgot about NT being possibly weak. I've heard about that style a lot.

To me so far 1NT is 15-17

[barsikb]

Zelandakh, isn't it very important to know number of cards in major suit and save same suit rebid for showing 6+ ?

[Zelandakh]

It is but we cannot have everything. For example, if an Opener's rebid of 3♣ is forcing, and it is for most non-Acol systems out there, then we need an alternative rebid for a minimum opening with 5 spades and 4 clubs. The majority of systems use 2♠ for this purpose. Similarly, if the response had been 2♦ instead of 2♣, the only possible rebid for a weak hand with 5 spades and 4 clubs would be 2♠. This illustrates that rebidding spades does not generally promise 6. More than this, since the upper range for the rebid is about 15 and the lower range for Responder is 10, partner will normally bid again giving us another chance to bid and complete the description of our hand.

[Cyberyeti]

 barsikb, on 2013-February-11, 06:35, said:

Forgot about NT being possibly weak. I've heard about that style a lot.

To me so far 1NT is 15-17

Weak or strong notrump has lots of side-effects on auctions where 1N is not opened, as does whether you open 1N with a 5 card major-332. To give you a bit of insight into how a system you may not see much works:

To a weak notrump Acol player, 1♠-2♦-2♠ just says I have a minimum opener with 5+ spades and without 4 hearts unless I have a lot of spades. So 5(332), 5??4, 6???. If you open 1N with 5332s then you know partner has either or both of a 6th spade and a 4th club.

Also if you open 1N with all 5332s, 1♠-2♣-2♠ is categorically 6 of them.

The notrump rebids can also be mucked about with as you know partner doesn't have a weak no trump so has extra points or shape when he opens 1 of a suit, so after a 2/1 2N is GF as you've guaranteed 15 opposite 10, so it can be pretty much unlimited and you can use 3N for something else. Some people actually invert 2N/3N to make slam investigation easier.

[fromageGB]

If you were playing 2/1 such that 2♣ is game forcing, there is a choice of approach in what opener's 2♠ rebid means. Some play it as showing 6 cards, but then there is no indication as to strength. It is 6 cards but could be weak or strong. You must find a way of showing any additional strength later.

Others play it as maybe 5 cards, maybe 6, but it is not strong. A stronger hand would rebid 2NT with 5 spades and no other suit, or 3♠ with 6 cards. To bid higher than 2 of the opening major shows additional strength. These players, if weak, start with 2♠ but then rebid spades later to show additional length.

Your partnership decides which is initially more important, length or strength. When an opponent rebids his suit, you cannot assume it shows extra length, it depends on his system and his approach to it.

[barsikb]

Big Thankyou to all the experts. Can you recommend the best book on 2/1?

Very confusing now. I do feel that it's a superior system but SAYC seams to be so much more comfortable. I understand there is much more judgement involved in making bidding decisions in 2/1 which would probably require lots of experience.

By the way even though it's not for this forum but I heard many teachers these days believe that it's better to teach 2/1 from very start. Do you agree? (I'll try to navigate and find if there is a discussion about this already )

[fromageGB]

The advantage of SAYC is that it is a prescribed system with every bid laid out as to meaning. An exaggeration, but it means that an individual can learn it, and have a reasonable game with an unknown partner playing the same system. That makes it a good one for a solo player to start with. 2/1 is essentially a concept, or framework, and within this you have many methods and treatments, with a bid from you being entirely misunderstood by someone who plays a different way. This means it is a system for partnerships to work on together to agree what they are going to do. And, later, how you are going to extend the basic framework into a comprehensive system.

So both have their merits. If you have a regular partner I would suggest you read together as many different 2/1 books by the famous standard authors as you lay hands on, and decide which approach you are going to take. Unfortunately, I am not aware of a definitive "this is the best" book on 2/1. If there was such a thing, SAYC would be dead.

[mitsguy]

 fromageGB, on 2013-February-12, 06:50, said:

The advantage of SAYC is that it is a prescribed system with every bid laid out as to meaning. An exaggeration, but it means that an individual can learn it, and have a reasonable game with an unknown partner playing the same system. That makes it a good one for a solo player to start with. 2/1 is essentially a concept, or framework, and within this you have many methods and treatments, with a bid from you being entirely misunderstood by someone who plays a different way. This means it is a system for partnerships to work on together to agree what they are going to do. And, later, how you are going to extend the basic framework into a comprehensive system.

So both have their merits. If you have a regular partner I would suggest you read together as many different 2/1 books by the famous standard authors as you lay hands on, and decide which approach you are going to take. Unfortunately, I am not aware of a definitive "this is the best" book on 2/1. If there was such a thing, SAYC would be dead.

Everything I read is very vague about how to continue the auction when responder bids a new suit at the 2 level (after opener opens at the 1 level) in SAYC. I know that in SAYC, bidding a new suit by responder at the 2 level shows 10 or more points. I'm guessing then opener should evaluate his/her hand as either minimum (13-14 points) or maximum (15 or more points, forcing to game). But I don't know exactly how the auction should continue.

To show 13-14 points, I assume you have the following options:
1. Raise resonder's suit to the 3 level.
2. Bidding 2NT with a balanced hand.
3. Rebidding original suit at the 2 level.
4. There must be a way to show a new suit. But at what level?

To show 15 or more points, you'd want to force to game. I'm guessing the options are:
1. Raise responder's suit to game (or 3NT if responder bids a minor and you want to play in NT)
2. Bidding 3NT witih a balanced hand and 18-19 points.
3. Does rebidding the original suit at the 3 level force to game? Or only invite game?
4. How would you bid a new suit and force to game? Do you have to bid a reverse or jump-shift? Or does any new suit force to game?

Thank you.

[fromageGB]

I'm hoping somebody who knows SAYC better than I will answer this.

I play that the only non-forcing opener rebids are 2NT, 2 of his major (with 6 cards), a raise of responder's suit, a new suit beneath the level of his major. These are your first 4 items.

With a stronger hand, I play a rebid of 3NT, a jump in the major, a jump raise, a new suit above the level of 2 of the major, and expect these (if less than game) to be forcing.

This post has been edited by fromageGB: 2013-February-13, 12:15

[fromageGB]

Let me add a appendix to the last post. You will see that following the above guide, a hand such as KQ974, 2, AQT63, J8 could open 1♠ and after partner's 2♥ has a problem. It is not strong enough to bid 3♦ and force to game. 2NT would be a terrible distortion of your hand, and 3♥ is just as bad. The only option is to rebid 2♠. Hopefully responder will bid 2NT, and you can then rebid 3♦, which can be passed, as you have already announced that you are weak.

So while 2♠ is often bid with a 6 card suit, sometimes there is no alternative when you have a 5 card suit, as Zel said earlier.

[EricK]

Further to the above, technically in SAYC responder's 2/1 promises a rebid. That implies that opener's 2NT rebid shouldn't be weak as partner might have a balanced 11 and yet be forced to bid beyond 2NT. So with a weak NT hand, opener should also rebid his major, and let responder bid a NF 2NT if the he has that hand. Whether opener's 2NT rebid shows 15-17 or 18-19 depends on whether you allow or disallow a 5 card major in the 1NT hand.

[P_Marlowe]

 barsikb, on 2013-February-11, 05:07, said:

Thank you for all the replies.

Sorry, I need to get back to basics on this.

1♠-2♣
After that presuming we are not using 2/1 but SAYC, what should opener bid?

Isn't 2NT showing less than 15HCP?

What would North bid after partner's 2♣ if his hand was AKJ85,87,KJ2,953 in both SAYC and 2/1?

According to the following side rebidding NT as cheaply as possible showes a min. opener
http://www.bridgehan...ntions/SAYC.htm

This does not mean, that the side states the SAYC system properly.

Some peoble require 6 spades for repeating the major, some require reasonable stoppers in the side
suit for rebidding NT, so some would rebid 2S, others would rebid 2NT, some would raise 2C to 3C,
since 2C will be usually a 5 card suit, and maybe you find someone, who would bid 2D.

I would go with 2NT, I have a bal. hand, I show the bal. hand.

With kind regards
Marlowe

[mitsguy]

Thanks. Is it fair to say that the meaning of 2NT by opener after a 2/1 response in SAYC is controversial? It seems to me that it would make the most sense for it to be invitational and to indicate 13-14 points. But is there anything saying that it means otherwise in SAYC?

As for new suits by opener, it seems:

Lower ranking than responder's suit: must be bid at 3 level, and is forcing, showing 15-21 points

Higher ranking than responder's suit, but lower ranking than opener's first suit: 2 level is ivitational, showing 13-14 points. To force to game and show 15+ points, jump to 3 level

Higher ranking than opener's first suit: 2 level is forcing, showing 15-21 points

Is this all correct?

If you have 13-14 points and can't bid your suit (either it's lower ranking than responder's suit, or higher ranking than your first suit), then I guess you just have to make a judgment call?

Thanks.

[awm]

Unfortunately the booklet says two contradictory things:

(1) A 2/1 bid promises a second call if below game
(2) Opener's notrump rebid shows a minimum

Taken together, these would seem to imply that opener rebids 2NT after 1♠-2♣ on minimum points, but then responder cannot pass despite having a balanced ten. Obviously this makes no sense.

However, if you look a bit more carefully, what has happened is that the booklet is really making statements about opener's rebids in one level auctions (i.e. 1x-1y-1NT shows minimum points) and is really not specific to two-level sequences, where responder promises a rebid.

The way things should work in 2/1 sequences playing SAYC is as follows:

(1) Responder's 2/1 bid promises a second call if below game
(2) Because of this, opener's rebids of 2NT or raising responder's second suit are forcing. These calls should not be made on a minimum opener.

Opener's options on a minimum in SAYC after responder makes a 2/1 call are:

- Bid a second suit which is cheaper than two of his first suit. This shows 4+ cards in the second suit. This is forcing one round.
- Rebid his first suit. This is just biding time with no other appropriate call. This is forcing one round.

Opener's options with extras (15+ typically):

- Bid a second suit which is cheaper than two of his first suit. This shows 4+ cards in the second suit and is forcing one round.
- Bid 2NT, natural and forcing to game. This shows a balanced hand with extras and is forcing to game.
- Raise responder's suit. This is forcing (remember responder promised another call) and therefore also shows extras.
- Make a non-jump call of a new suit above two of his first suit. This shows 4+ cards in the suit bid and extras, and is forcing to game.
- Jump in his original suit. This shows a very good suit of 6+ cards, extras, and is forcing to game.
- Jump in a new suit. This shows extras with a very two-suited hand (usually 5+ in each suit) and is forcing to game.
- Rebid his first suit. This is just biding time with no other appropriate call and is forcing one round.

Responder's next call is usually natural. If opener did not definitively show extras (i.e. rebid his first suit or something cheaper) then it will be useful to know what is forcing and what isn't. The following calls are not forcing (unless opener has extras, of course):

- Responder rebids 2NT. Invitational, a good 10 to a bad 12.
- Responder rebids his original suit. Invitational with 6+ suit.
- Responder rebids two of opener's suit. Invitational, normally doubleton support (would've made a limit raise which is only 3+ in SAYC otherwise).
- Responder raises opener's second suit to the three-level. Invitational, normally four-card support for the second suit.

The following calls show a game force by responder, after opener makes a possibly-minimum rebid:

- Responder jumps in opener's original suit (game force with 3-card support)
- Responder bids the fourth suit (artificial -- the fourth-suit-forcing convention)
- Responder bids a new suit after opener rebids his major (new suits by responder are forcing)
- Responder jumps in opener's second suit
- Responder jump-rebids his first suit
- Responder bids game (obviously)

Having said all of this, I will admit that many who claim to play SAYC really play some generic version of "standard american" in which responder's two-level responses do not promise a rebid. For these people, many of opener's calls (including raising responder's suit, rebidding 2NT, and possibly even rebidding two of opener's suit) are non-forcing. It's hard to answer questions about such a "system" because it doesn't really include any agreements and people play it different ways. Some other things that may not be in included in "standard american" (but are part of SAYC) include fourth suit forcing, jacoby 2NT, strong jump shifts, and natural forcing 2NT responses to minor-suit openings.

[fromageGB]

 awm, on 2013-February-16, 11:29, said:

Responder's next call is usually natural. If opener did not definitively show extras (i.e. rebid his first suit or something cheaper) then it will be useful to know what is forcing and what isn't. The following calls are not forcing (unless opener has extras, of course):

- Responder rebids 2NT. Invitational, a good 10 to a bad 12.
- Responder rebids his original suit. Invitational with 6+ suit.
- Responder rebids two of opener's suit. Invitational, normally doubleton support (would've made a limit raise which is only 3+ in SAYC otherwise).
- Responder raises opener's second suit to the three-level. Invitational, normally four-card support for the second suit.

Adam, excellent detail, worth keeping your post as a summary.
However, I think you missed one additional bid in the above non-forcing responder rebids :
- Responder raises opener's rebid suit to the three-level. Invitational.

I hope I'm right!

[mitsguy]

Thanks for all that. Just out of curiosity, where did you get all that info from? If it's not in the SAYC book, then is this just your personal agreements, or is this official? A few questions below:

 awm, on 2013-February-16, 11:29, said:

Opener's options on a minimum in SAYC after responder makes a 2/1 call are:

- Bid a second suit which is cheaper than two of his first suit. This shows 4+ cards in the second suit. This is forcing one round.
- Rebid his first suit. This is just biding time with no other appropriate call. This is forcing one round.

So, there is no way to show support for responder's suit with 13-14 points? Also, is it ok to rebid a 5 card major? And, you could potentially be forced to rebid a 3 card diamond suit, if you have 4 in each major and only 2 clubs, and if the responder bids 2♣. You don't have another suit that can be bid below diamonds, and you can't bid 2NT it seems, so would 2♦ be the right bid?

Quote

Opener's options with extras (15+ typically):

- Bid a second suit which is cheaper than two of his first suit. This shows 4+ cards in the second suit and is forcing one round.

So that doesn't limit your hand to 13-14 points?

Quote

- Bid 2NT, natural and forcing to game. This shows a balanced hand with extras and is forcing to game.

I assume that means specifically 18-19 points. With 15-17 you would have opened 1NT, and with 20-21, you would have opened 2NT. I think SAYC requires you to open 1NT or 2NT even with a 5 card major.

Quote

- Raise responder's suit. This is forcing (remember responder promised another call) and therefore also shows extras.
- Make a non-jump call of a new suit above two of his first suit. This shows 4+ cards in the suit bid and extras, and is forcing to game.
- Jump in his original suit. This shows a very good suit of 6+ cards, extras, and is forcing to game.
- Jump in a new suit. This shows extras with a very two-suited hand (usually 5+ in each suit) and is forcing to game.

Is that only for a suit that is higher ranking than responder's suit but lower ranking than opener's first suit? I assume you would not do that for a suit lower ranking than your first suit (you'd have to go to the 4 level, bypassing 3NT), or for a suit higher ranking than your original suit?

Quote

- Rebid his first suit. This is just biding time with no other appropriate call and is forcing one round.

Again, that doesn't limit your hand to 13-14 points?

Quote

Having said all of this, I will admit that many who claim to play SAYC really play some generic version of "standard american" in which responder's two-level responses do not promise a rebid. For these people, many of opener's calls (including raising responder's suit, rebidding 2NT, and possibly even rebidding two of opener's suit) are non-forcing. It's hard to answer questions about such a "system" because it doesn't really include any agreements and people play it different ways. Some other things that may not be in included in "standard american" (but are part of SAYC) include fourth suit forcing, jacoby 2NT, strong jump shifts, and natural forcing 2NT responses to minor-suit openings.

In practice, when playing SAYC online, do people typically play as you suggested in your post? Or do people typically play 2NT being non-forcing and 13-14 points?

Thanks again.

[awm]

Raising opener's rebid suit to the three-level (as in 1♠-2♦-2♠-3♠) should be forcing. Again, the inference is that the 2♠ rebid did not guarantee a sixth spade (it would be normal to rebid 2♠ there with a balanced minimum, or a minimum with spades and clubs). So how many spades does responder have? With only two it is odd to raise a five card suit to the three-level... and with three and an invite, he would've bid 1♠-3♠ directly. This is not a "preference" auction like 1♠-2♦-2♥-2♠ where it is normal to "pick one of partner's suits." So the three-level raise should be three spade and forcing.

To support responder's suit with 13-14 points, start by rebidding your major. Partner will now do something (remember the major suit rebid is forcing). This will normally give you the chance to raise at the next turn. For example:

1♠ - 2♣ - 3♣ Club raise with extras, forcing because responder promised a rebid.
1♠ - 2♣ - 2♠ - 2NT - 3♣ Club raise with a minimum; now we can get out in three clubs.

The exact range of 1♠-2♣-2NT depends on your opening tendencies. Some people will always open 1NT with 5♠-332 and 15-17 points, some will always open 1♠, some will do a bit of each depending on the hand. SAYC doesn't really have a policy on this. In any case the 2NT bid is forcing (responder promised a rebid remember) and therefore shows enough for game opposite 10.

Rebidding the first suit does not actually limit the hand. The typical example is something like ♠Q87542 ♥AK9 ♦AK2 ♣5. You open 1♠ and partner bids 2♣. Do you really want to bid 3♠ on this terrible suit? It will take up all your bidding room, and partner will assume you have good spades. He will often be weak in one (or both) of the red suits given your holding, and may decide to bid 4♠ on a singleton rather than 3NT with a red suit (from his hand) wide open. In all it is much better if your jump-rebid shows a good suit, meaning you may have to rebid 2♠ on hands like these. There are other examples too. But that being said, the 2M rebid is usually just 13-14 points and partner will normally take you for that.

There isn't usually a reason to jump around in these 2/1 auctions. Most good players will play a jump to the four-level (i.e. 1♠-2♥-4♣) as a splinter, but this is not part of the basic SAYC card (it is a "recommended" add-on though). Without an agreement to play splinters I suppose this auction is a very strong two-suiter, but I'm sure that I've never had occasion to bid it that way.

The above agreements are based on the SAYC lessons taught on OKB for many years, and are mostly a logical consequence of what's written in the SAYC system booklet. Most of it is inference -- for example, we know that 1♠-3♠ is limit raise and shows 3+ spades. So logically other sequences like 1♠-2♣-2♥-3♠ should not be a limit raise with three spades. It does not actually say anywhere that this is not also exactly the same hand as 1♠-3♠, but logically it shouldn't be. Similarly, it doesn't say anywhere that 1♠-2♣-2NT shows extras, but it does say that responder could have a balanced 10 and responder must bid again (promises rebid) so logically it should show extras.

There are some who will argue that logic should not be applied to SAYC (or even to bridge in general) but I'm not among them.

As for what "most people play on BBO" I very much suspect it is more the nebulous "standard american" variety where basically nothing is forcing and you never know what you're going to get. Most of the expert crowd prefers to play 2/1 GF.

[Fluffy]

 Zelandakh, on 2013-February-07, 08:36, said:

Why not Fluffy? The hands fit badly and there is no trick source. Since 5332 is often upgraded, 17 is hardly unexpected either. I think doing more than 4NT here would be reckless.

I think this way of thinking is twisted, if you think a bid shows 17+ when it includes 5 card major, then you define it as 17+, if you define it as 18+ then it is a hand worht 18+. And 18+15 = 33.

I've losed a lot of big swings for staying out of slam with fitless 32 counts. Good declarers seem to get the best out of this ones, when the 3-3 break don't come there are squeezes, etc. Here it is a 33 count, with every suit having 4+ cards, you don't realice how useful is to have all suits with 4+ cards when having a lot of combined HCP.

[barsikb]

Thank you to everyone who gave me answers. Will take time to study them.