[lycier]

---

A pity that we lost slam.
For us,3nt showed 5-card ♠ + 4-card ♥,but no way to find slam.

How to handle this hand to bid up to slam now?

[wank]

play a different convention? i've no idea what the rest of your response structure is, but if 3NT is non-forcing it's not hard to see that it might end in tears.

[TWO4BRIDGE]

Opener really is at the upper end of a 2NT opening ( 20,21 ) ... 9 controls . Perhaps should upgrade to a 2C opening ?

There is a way to show Responder's 6s/4h if NO Puppet:

2NT - 3C ( regular Stayman )
3D ( no 4 card Major )
.... - 3H! ( Smolen , ostensibly showing 5s/4h
3NT ( no 4h, no 3s )
.... - 4H! ( Texas , showing 6s/4h )
4S
.... - 4NT
5H ( 2 or 5 and no ♠Q )
.... - 6S

[ggwhiz]

I might miss this one too but my aggressive pard would upgrade the north hand to 2♣ followed by 2nt giving us a live shot.

If you MUST to bid 3nt with this shape it's time to reconsider your methods. Nothing wrong with stayman followed by smolen followed by 4♠ to give north a chance at bidding on.

hehe, this is an echo of the above post

[Cyberyeti]

Range for 2N ?

We'd bid:

2N-3♣(5 card major enquiry, not puppet)
3N-(2♠/2-3♥)-5♠
6♠

[kenberg]

Although the methods failed here, I'm not so sure they are so faulty. I can imagine South, after hearing 2NT, thinking along the lines: Will four keys be enough? If partner has four hearts or three spades, probably it will be enough. If not, then maybe it won't. Now North has five keys for spades, but that's a bid unusual even for an opening 2NTer.

Maybe South should be more aggressive, but it is not clear to me just how. Consider the suggested option of Smolen followed by 4♠, or a transfer to 4♠, showing 6-4. Would North go on, even with his super max? South does not need slam invitational values to bid this way.

Seems to me it's a tough slam to get to. I don't know anything about big club systems with relays, maybe that would do it.

I look forward to hearing from the experts that I am stupid and/or insane.

[PhilKing]

Cyberyeti, on 2013-April-06, 09:39, said:

Range for 2N ?

We'd bid:

2N-3♣(5 card major enquiry, not puppet)
3N-(2♠/2-3♥)-5♠
6♠

I did a short sim that suggested the South hand is worth a slam try if the 2NT range includes 22s, but not if that ended at the five level.

There were a few hands where five went down, but the real problem was hands such as:

K 8
A 4 2
A K 6
A Q 8 7 2

Where partner can hardly be blamed for raising. There were many similar hands, where partner likes his hand but needs room to establish we are off two key card. The ox does not always hold HH doubleton spade.

[gszes]

Lets imagine p with 4 aces and out (well below the 20+ they have shown).
Once you do that you start to see the slam potential but the problem is in the
details of how to poceed safely. You want to invite slam and IMO the best way
to do that is to concentrate on using spades as trumps. 2n 3h(transfer) 3s 4s.
This differs from 2n 4h (transfer) 4s because we are not using the principal of fast
arrival. Using jacoby followed by a raise to game is a mild slam try. This aks p to look
at their hand consider the trump suit and their controls and decide how to proceed.

This is a highly effective method that allows the partnership to avoid some slams
where the trump suit itself is the problem since opener can bid 5s to say they are
slammish but have doubts about the trump suit (where say they hold only Hx)
courtesy philking above---Kx Axx AKx AQxxx.

We cannot always accomplish everything we want in the bidding and our choice of how
to proceed is dependent on our overall objective. Once we see the slam potential of
this hand we chose a method that would best allow us to get to slam rather than worrying
about playing in a 44 heart fit.

[Cyberyeti]

PhilKing, on 2013-April-07, 06:57, said:

I did a short sim that suggested the South hand is worth a slam try if the 2NT range includes 22s, but not if that ended at the five level.

There were a few hands where five went down, but the real problem was hands such as:

K 8
A 4 2
A K 6
A Q 8 7 2

Where partner can hardly be blamed for raising. There were many similar hands, where partner likes his hand but needs room to establish we are off two key card. The ox does not always hold HH doubleton spade.

5♠ says bid 6 with good spades, he will have 2 honours to raise, I'm going to assume Hx as normal. I would bid the hand differently with a better spade suit, something like Qxxxxx or J10xxxx is typical for this auction with 4 hearts on the side.

That said I would probably not open the actual N hand 2N.

[aguahombre]

Mikeh produced a scheme where us Puppet addicts could effectively intertwine Smolen, with or without slam interest after 2nt.

It was posted in November 2011 in the middle of a Puppet thread. I have a screen snapshot of it, but am too lame to actually be able to find it and link it here.

[PhilKing]

Cyberyeti, on 2013-April-07, 09:42, said:

5♠ says bid 6 with good spades, he will have 2 honours to raise

That said I would probably not open the actual N hand 2N.

Is:

AQ Axx KQx AQTxx enough?

or does he need five key cards ...

[Cascade]

PhilKing, on 2013-April-07, 06:57, said:

I did a short sim that suggested the South hand is worth a slam try if the 2NT range includes 22s, but not if that ended at the five level.

There were a few hands where five went down, but the real problem was hands such as:

K 8
A 4 2
A K 6
A Q 8 7 2

Where partner can hardly be blamed for raising. There were many similar hands, where partner likes his hand but needs room to establish we are off two key card. The ox does not always hold HH doubleton spade.

Opposite 20-21 (4333, 4432, 5332, 5422) and constraining partner to have only two spades and no more than three hearts my numbers suggested a slam investigation was very reasonable, even to the five-level.

Tricks in spades (1000 hand simulation)

    9          4
   10         91
   11        511
   12        356
   13         38

The upside of inviting slam is much lower than the cost of going down at the five-level.

Even given a two card spade holding Kx was relatively infrequent.

    xx          5
    Qx         42
    Kx        127
    Ax        252
    KQ        103
    AQ        203
    AK        268

And even with Kx there is a play for one loser. K9 wins with Qx or Q onside and K8 wins with Qx (not Q9 unless you guess well) or Q onside.

[Cyberyeti]

PhilKing, on 2013-April-07, 09:56, said:

Is:

AQ Axx KQx AQTxx enough?

or does he need five key cards ...

That's a judgment call and it's close, he's going to visualise a 10 count with 6 spades to the J and 4 hearts, he has to guess A♦/K♣ basically (both and 4 bad hearts should be OK).

[keylime]

2C - response
2NT - 3H
3S - 4H (can't be 5-4-x-x, you play Muppet, ergo, 6-4)
etc.

[mike777]

what is the question?

fwiw silly answers......what is the question?

I am harsh to say you don't frame or understand what the question is.....

[TWO4BRIDGE]

keylime, on 2013-April-07, 22:20, said:

2C - response
2NT - 3H
3S - 4H (can't be 5-4-x-x, you play Muppet, ergo, 6-4)
etc.

Thx, Dwayne ... for some reason I thought it would be more complicated to show a 6s/4h hand .

EDIT: Am I right, however, that with a 5s/5h hand you would go thru Muppet ?

This post has been edited by TWO4BRIDGE: 2013-April-08, 07:17

[Vampyr]

TWO4BRIDGE, on 2013-April-08, 07:14, said:

Thx, Dwayne ... for some reason I thought it would be more complicated to show a 6s/4h hand .

EDIT: Am I right, however, that with a 5s/5h hand you would go thru Muppet ?

I bid 5-5 hands 1NT or 2NT - 4♣. Opener can bid 4♦ if she has any interest.

[Zelandakh]

Vampyr, on 2013-April-08, 18:40, said:

I bid 5-5 hands 1NT or 2NT - 4♣. Opener can bid 4♦ if she has any interest.

I used to do this over 2NT too. Then I found out that using 2NT - 3♦; 3♥ - 4♦ for 5-5 majors seems to work out better for game and slam drive hands. With a slam try I would take the 3♣ route though.

Over a (weak) 1NT Opening, I like 4♣ as both majors to act like Texas - either to play in 4M or to ask for key cards. There is plenty of space in-between to handle slam-try hands. For me the primary route would be 1NT - 2♦; 2♥ - 3♦ but there is also a way of asking for 3 card major fragments after a 2♣ (Puppet) start. I use that for 5-5 hands without slam interest that do not want to commit to the 4 level (opposite 2245 for example).

For the 6-4 hands, those are not much of a problem in regular Puppet. You respond 3♣ and if partner bids 3♦ you have a fit; if 3NT then 4♦ and 4♥ can be played as puppet transfers. It is a little trickier in the version I like, where 3♦ shows 3+ spades and/or 4+ hearts. If our 6 card major is spades then 4♦, showing 5+ spades and 4 hearts, is simple. But with 6 hearts and 4 spades there is no good option that keeps everything right-sided. The best I can offer is the sequence 2NT - 3♣; 3♦ - 3♥; 3♠ - 4♠ (good) or 2NT - 3♣; 3♦ - 3♥; 3NT - 4♥ (bad) for being in 4♠ on the 4-4 fit or 4♥ otherwise. On the other hand, if our hearts are not good enough to insist on then we may not want to play in 4♥ opposite a doubleton. Then 2NT - 3♦; 3♥ - 3NT (5♥4♠) means we play 4♠ if there is a 4-4 spade fit, 4♥ if there is a 6-3 heart fit, or 3NT if the best fit is 6-2.

So I think there are enough options available whichever Puppet scheme is being used. It is really just a matter of trying to organise the bids in such a way as to try to minimise wrong-siding and maximise the number of showable hand types.

[mikl_plkcc]

Holding 6 ♠s, South should set the trump suit himself, as a fit is guaranteed.