[Wackojack]

I am producing a write up on this topic in order to have something to agree with partners. I have been aiming for something without a lot of memory load with common principles running through them. This is a summary of what I have produced so far. Any suggestions for countering Suction, that is in reasonable harmony with what I have produced so far will be gratefully received. Thanks

Natural single suited overcall

A new suit at the 2 level is natural and to play.
A new suit at the 3 level is natural and forcing to game
A bid of 2NT is artificial and forces opener to bid 3♣.
A cue bid of the opponent’s known suit is Stayman.
A double is for take-out except when the overcall is a natural 2♣, when it is Stayman.
The exception to the above is when the overcall is a natural 2♣. Double then becomes Stayman and other bids are transfers.


Natural plus an unspecified other suit
Treat as a single suited overcall

Artificial with a known anchor suit
Responder bids in the same way as if the overcall was natural except that a double is a take-out of the artificial suit.

Double or 2♣ showing an unknown single suiter
System on except that a double of 2♣(the stolen bid) is Stayman

Artificial with 2NT showing the minors

Stayman 3♣ and transfers as if partner had opened 2NT.
Double shows ability to penalise at least one minor

2♣ or 2♦ showing both majors

Double shows stolen bid
2♦ is natural and non-forcing (after 2♣)
2M shows stopper and 2NT shows both
3m is natural and game forcing
3NT is to play

Suction or similar
?????

[helene_t]

You will obviously need to be more specific about the 2nt (lebensohl) bid. Fast or slow? Do you distinguish between stop or not, or between invitational and gf hands?

The defense against the capp 2♦ bid I don't quite understand. I wouldn't use 2M to show stoppers - show whether you have clubs/diamonds/both first, and then you can shows stoppers afterwords if you have a gf hand.

[Mbodell]

Quote

A bid of 2NT is artificial and forces opener to bid 3♣.

This seems incomplete.

For suction, treat it as the single suited strain except bidding the single suited strain at the 2 level is natural (to play) and X is values with no direction. Pass and then X is takeout, as is opener's X.

You also likely want to cover 2♦ showing 1 major. Immediate and delayed leb seems easiest.

[CSGibson]

easiest (for me) is as follows:

An immediate double by responder is game forcing, generally does not have a 5 card major. Further doubles after that initial double are penalty, forcing passes are on, as is normal lebensohl agreements after they disclose their suit(s).

2 level suit bids are to play

3 level suit bids are as normal, but without stayman (stayman hands either double immediately or, if invitational, do so later)

doubles after initially passing are limited and take-out oriented. Lebensohl applies (delayed)

[Wackojack]

CSGibson, on 2013-April-07, 03:41, said:

easiest (for me) is as follows:

An immediate double by responder is game forcing, generally does not have a 5 card major. Further doubles after that initial double are penalty, forcing passes are on, as is normal lebensohl agreements after they disclose their suit(s).

2 level suit bids are to play

3 level suit bids are as normal, but without stayman (stayman hands either double immediately or, if invitational, do so later)

doubles after initially passing are limited and take-out oriented. Lebensohl applies (delayed)

Thanks for that:I have tried to interpret these precepts with more detail as follows:

Single suited major:
Weak: Bid it. But would you not choose to pass first when the overcall is 2♣?
Invite: Bid via leb?
GF: Jump bid?

Single suited minor:
Weak: Over 2♣ you would bid 2♦? Surely not? Instead 2NT Leb? Over 2♦♥♠ pass?
Invite: Same as weak?
GF: 3♣♦?

Balanced:
Competitive: Pass and re-enter with a take-out double with a doubleton in the opps suit?
GF: Double?

2 Suited:
Competitive: pass and re-enter with suit at the lowest level if sensible?
GF: Pass and re-enter with 2NT Leb and then bid suit over 3♣?

Am I near the mark?

To MBodel: Sorry I am not sure what you mean, but I am guessing you are saying roughly the same

[Wackojack]

helene_t, on 2013-April-06, 13:26, said:

You will obviously need to be more specific about the 2nt (lebensohl) bid. Fast or slow? Do you distinguish between stop or not, or between invitational and gf hands?

The defense against the capp 2♦ bid I don't quite understand. I wouldn't use 2M to show stoppers - show whether you have clubs/diamonds/both first, and then you can shows stoppers afterwords if you have a gf hand.

I did not go into much detail when the overcall was a single suiter as this is familiar territory. I normally play slow shows stop as it happens. I have realised that after 2♣ Landy or 2♦ Capp, I am om much less familiar territory. These are ideas of the top of my head so may not be mainstream and may not be best:


Defence to 2♦ Capp:

Single suited minor:
Weak: Bid 2NT Leb
Invite: With ♦, double and then bid 3♦?
GF: Bid it at the 3 level

Single suited major:
Weak:pass
Invite: pass await developments
GF: Pass then bid major when opps stop in other major

Balanced:
Weak: pass
Competitive: pass and re-enter with take-out double
GF: Double (likely 4-4 in minors) or with stops in 1 major bid it. With stops in both bid 3N

Minors: 5-5 or good 5-4
Weak: 2NT leb choose minor
GF: Bid 3♦ and follow up with 4♣

[PhilKing]

Wackojack, on 2013-April-07, 05:06, said:

shows stop as it happens. I have realised that after 2♣ Landy or 2♦ Capp, I am om much less familiar territory.

You can chuck half of this out the window and cover all hand types with a few much simpler agreements.

1. Forget everything you were ever told about "slow shows". It's just rubbish. All relatively balanced hands where strain is in doubt can be handled with an initial double. Against a natural overcall, the cue bid show a hand that cannot stand a penalty pass from partner.

2. Your 2NT lebensohl bid should be interpretted as mildly constructive, and can cover all the unbid strains.

3. Don't give up playing in "their" suit. You have loads of ways of bidding the other suits and you simply do not need these cue bids.

With the above in mind, the defence to 2♣(majors) would work as follows:

Double = it's our hand (usually balanced). Subsequent double penalties.
2♦/2♥/♠ = natural. There is no need to play "M as cue bids. I had a hand recently against David Bakshi where he bid 2♣ on a 3451 shape, planning to pass a 2♦ response. But even if they promise 54, that does not mean we should never play in a major.
2NT = lebensohl. With a purely competitive hand, one can pass, so partner can break the puppet.
3♣+ = forcing (you could play 3♥/♠ = splinter, both minors GF if you want some frills)

Pass and double = take-out
Pass and 3m = clubs
Pass then 2N = both minors

With the above in mind, the defence to 2♦(Capp) would work as follows:

Double = it's our hand (usually balanced). Subsequent double penalties.
2M = nat
2NT = invitation one suiter. Any suit possible. As above, with a weak hand pass and bid.
3 any = nat GF

Pass and double = take-out
Pass and 3m = weak
Pass then 2N = both minors

Against any overcall where they may have the suit overcalled, the first double is for take-out and all other actions remain the same, except that we can't be sure of getting another go. Even so, I would still play that 2NT implies some ambition, and is never done on absolute filth.

[CSGibson]

Wackojack, on 2013-April-07, 04:32, said:

Thanks for that:I have tried to interpret these precepts with more detail as follows:

Single suited major:
Weak: Bid it. But would you not choose to pass first when the overcall is 2♣?
Invite: Bid via leb?
GF: Jump bid?

Over 2C, just play systems on, same as you would for any other unanchored 2♣. As for the invite/GF, yes, I think that you have it right, if that's what you would play over a natural 2D bid.

Wackojack, on 2013-April-07, 04:32, said:

Single suited minor:
Weak: Over 2♣ you would bid 2♦? Surely not? Instead 2NT Leb? Over 2♦♥♠ pass?
Invite: Same as weak?
GF: 3♣♦?

I would tend to X initially with the game forcing minor hand, but 3m right away is also possible. Waiting then bidding 3C/3D should be invitational, and you can choose to lebensohl with weak distributional hands if you just want to compete.

Wackojack, on 2013-April-07, 04:32, said:

Balanced:
Competitive: Pass and re-enter with a take-out double with a doubleton in the opps suit?
GF: Double?

Yes

Wackojack, on 2013-April-07, 04:32, said:

2 Suited:
Competitive: pass and re-enter with suit at the lowest level if sensible?
GF: Pass and re-enter with 2NT Leb and then bid suit over 3♣?

No, with a game force either X or bid your suit in a game-forcing fashion immediately. With a competitive hand, you also want to start bidding your suits immediately. They may be about to jump, after all.

[PhilKing]

CSGibson, on 2013-April-07, 12:01, said:

Waiting then bidding 3C/3D should be invitational, and you can choose to lebensohl with weak distributional hands if you just want to compete.

With a competitive hand, you also want to start bidding your suits immediately. They may be about to jump, after all.

This is completely the wrong way round.

If all you wanted to do was compete, why should you care if they jump around? Whereas if you are invitational, if LHO preempts, you have flubbed your invitational raise.

[CSGibson]

PhilKing, on 2013-April-07, 14:13, said:

This is completely the wrong way round.

If all you wanted to do was compete, why should you care if they jump around? Whereas if you are invitational, if LHO preempts, you have flubbed your invitational raise.

Yes, creative editing can make those seem unreasonable. But it makes sense in context of the conversation we were having, and in context of what they play normally - I'm assuming they don't actually have a way of showing an invitational had with 5+ diamonds after a natural 2H interference, for example, so this systemic structure does not give up anything that they would normally be able to show.

[Wackojack]

PhilKing, on 2013-April-07, 06:30, said:

You can chuck half of this out the window and cover all hand types with a few much simpler agreements.

1. Forget everything you were ever told about "slow shows". It's just rubbish. All relatively balanced hands where strain is in doubt can be handled with an initial double. Against a natural overcall, the cue bid show a hand that cannot stand a penalty pass from partner.

I have been trying to work if this assertion is possible. Say RHO overcalls 2S. If you are balanced and have enough for game, there are 4 possibilities. I have:

(i) 4 hearts + no spade stop; say a cue of 3S shows exactly this, then if partner bids 4 hearts I pass, if 3NT promising stop I pass, otherwise partner has to bid a minor.

All other combinations then have to go through double. After a double partner can do any of 3 things. 1. Bid 3H with four. 2. Bid 3NT with a spade stop and not 4 hearts. 3. Bid 3S with no spade stop and not 4 hearts. With this in mind looking at the other 3 combination that responder might have:

(ii) 4 hearts + spade stop; double; then if partner bids 3H I raise to 4H; if partner bids 3S, I bid 3NT; if partner bids 3NT I pass.

(iii) not 4 hearts + no spade stop; double; then if partner bids 3H, I deny the spade stop by bidding 3S, partner will then then bid 3NT with a spade stop otherwise a minor. If partner bids 3S I will have to bid a minor. If partner bids 3NT I will pass.

(iv) not 4H + spade stop; I bid 3NT

Is this how you were seeing it?

[Wackojack]

PhilKing, on 2013-April-07, 06:30, said:

You can chuck half of this out the window and cover all hand types with a few much simpler agreements.

With the above in mind, the defence to 2♣(majors) would work as follows:

Double = it's our hand (usually balanced). Subsequent double penalties.
2♦/2♥/♠ = natural. There is no need to play "M as cue bids. I had a hand recently against David Bakshi where he bid 2♣ on a 3451 shape, planning to pass a 2♦ response. But even if they promise 54, that does not mean we should never play in a major.
2NT = lebensohl. With a purely competitive hand, one can pass, so partner can break the puppet.
3♣+ = forcing (you could play 3♥/♠ = splinter, both minors GF if you want some frills)

Pass and double = take-out
Pass and 3m = clubs
Pass then 2N = both minors

With the above in mind, the defence to 2♦(Capp) would work as follows:

Double = it's our hand (usually balanced). Subsequent double penalties.
2M = nat
2NT = invitation one suiter. Any suit possible. As above, with a weak hand pass and bid.
3 any = nat GF

Pass and double = take-out
Pass and 3m = weak
Pass then 2N = both minors

Against any overcall where they may have the suit overcalled, the first double is for take-out and all other actions remain the same, except that we can't be sure of getting another go. Even so, I would still play that 2NT implies some ambition, and is never done on absolute filth.

I am not convinced letting go the bidding 2M to show a stop. When David Bakshi bid 2C on a 3451 shape he was either psyching or his agreement of 2C was Suction not Landy.

[PhilKing]

Wackojack, on 2013-April-08, 03:01, said:

I have been trying to work if this assertion is possible. Say RHO overcalls 2S. If you are balanced and have enough for game, there are 4 possibilities. I have:

(i) 4 hearts + no spade stop; say a cue of 3S shows exactly this, then if partner bids 4 hearts I pass, if 3NT promising stop I pass, otherwise partner has to bid a minor.

Broadly yes, but I only cue if I can't stand partner making a penalty pass.

All other combinations then have to go through double. After a double partner can do any of 3 things. 1. Bid 3H with four. 2. Bid 3NT with a spade stop and not 4 hearts. 3. Bid 3S with no spade stop and not 4 hearts. With this in mind looking at the other 3 combination that responder might have:

(ii) 4 hearts + spade stop; double; then if partner bids 3H I raise to 4H; if partner bids 3S, I bid 3NT; if partner bids 3NT I pass.

Yes, but partner never bids 3♠ over the double, since I am potentially just making a take-out double without any game aspirations. It's not a lebensohl-style invitational double. They have gone out of fashion.

(iii) not 4 hearts + no spade stop; double; then if partner bids 3H, I deny the spade stop by bidding 3S, partner will then then bid 3NT with a spade stop otherwise a minor. If partner bids 3S I will have to bid a minor. If partner bids 3NT I will pass.

Sort of yes, but again partner never responds 3♠ to double. Lacking four hearts he bids 2NT (natural) or 3m (natural), so we always have the option of asking for a stop next time.

(iv) not 4H + spade stop; I bid 3NT

Yes.
Is this how you were seeing it?

See above.

[PhilKing]

Wackojack, on 2013-April-08, 03:51, said:

I am not convinced letting go the bidding 2M to show a stop. When David Bakshi bid 2C on a 3451 shape he was either psyching or his agreement of 2C was Suction not Landy.

He was psyching. You can always double first and show stops later, so you are basically giving up nothing and are coincidentally forced to defend correctly. Partner may whack two of a major.

[PhilKing]

CSGibson, on 2013-April-07, 20:47, said:

Yes, creative editing can make those seem unreasonable. But it makes sense in context of the conversation we were having, and in context of what they play normally - I'm assuming they don't actually have a way of showing an invitational had with 5+ diamonds after a natural 2H interference, for example, so this systemic structure does not give up anything that they would normally be able to show.

If I had realised that you were suggesting, of all things, passing over natural interference with an invitational hand, I would never have indulged in creative editing.

[CSGibson]

PhilKing, on 2013-April-08, 06:21, said:

If I had realised that you were suggesting, of all things, passing over natural interference with an invitational hand, I would never have indulged in creative editing.

Take a breath, Phil. I am not suggesting that, though I can see how my comment can be interpreted that way. I am simply saying that the tempo of a suction auction allows you to differentiate easier between invitational and game forcing hands, given their methods.

One of the advantages the NT opening side has against people playing suction is that something like 98% of the time, they get two bites at the apple, so making use of the extra tempo in the auction just makes good sense. This suggested defensive structure allows them to show the invitational hand type also, when they would not normally have that option, unless the auction goes all pass. It is a risk that I'm ok taking personally with invitational hands, but not game forcing hands if I'm stuck playing traditional lebensohl agreements instead of something like transfer lebensohl.