[yaohung]

If North can bid 4♥ after your pass or 3X then auction goes 2 pass to you, another poll?

---

Probably the poll is not the most improtant issue. What I concern the most is the meaning of your action and why?
1) Is the 4H pass from East sort of forcing pass ??

2) Is the meaning of X different according to the initial 3H or 3S call??

[Hanoi5]

yaohung, on 2013-May-09, 10:24, said:

If North can bid 4♥ after your pass or 3X then auction goes 2 pass to you, another poll?

---

Probably the poll is not the most improtant issue. What I concern the most is the meaning of your action and why?
1) Is the 4H pass from East sort of forcing pass ??

2) Is the meaning of X different according to the initial 3H or 3S call??

1)No, I don't think so. Game has not been reached and we've just given a support for partner's suit.
2)3♥? I bid 3♠. Then I suppose the double means we're maximum with defensive tricks. I see only two possible tricks in my hand I'm not doubling for only one down (or the not so remote chance that they'll make it)

[aguahombre]

I don't see the dilemma. 3S then is as pure as it can be ---a non-invite with 4 trumps. Double now is as pure as it can be ---two tricks.

[JLOGIC]

Why does 3S show 4 trumps? You are just making a simple raise.

[gszes]

while there are numerous ways to handle michaels a very common
method is as follows

over 1s 2s (similar meanings over 1h 2h)
pass weak hands and hands that cannot use the bids below
x = I wanted to bid 2s
2n = a hand uninterested in x hearts (maybe due to vulnerability) somewhat slow heart stops and invitational hand
Qx QT32 Kxxx Axx
3h = limit raise + for spades (this bid has a tendency to be limited to game forcing with little slam interest
since we can employ a 3m bid and later support spades to show slam interest
3m = normal forcing bid with minor may or may not have spade support (slammish if with spade support)
3n = normal 13-16 balanced all side suits stopped (hearts especially) no interest in x mainly due to vulnerability
Jx AK QJxx QJxxx
4m splinter in support of spades
4H splinter in support of spades
4s to play
add other gadgets as you see fit

Using the above this hand should x the 2s bid and later x 4h p will be in superb position to know we have 2 tricks and
little extra and should be in good postion to pass or pull the x.

To address your second issue once you have limited your hand p pass is not forcing.

[aguahombre]

JLOGIC, on 2013-May-09, 14:47, said:

Why does 3S show 4 trumps? You are just making a simple raise.

I didn't quite mean it "showed" 4 Trumps. I meant that makes it a nice pure 3S bid. Certainly there are hands with only 3 with which it would be necessary to bid 3S under the given pressure.

[yaohung]

Hanoi5, on 2013-May-09, 13:35, said:

1)No, I don't think so. Game has not been reached and we've just given a support for partner's suit.
2)3♥? I bid 3♠. Then I suppose the double means we're maximum with defensive tricks. I see only two possible tricks in my hand I'm not doubling for only one down (or the not so remote chance that they'll make it)

I am just wondering how many of you play the concept of either "X or 4S". There should be no play for 4H since we all know 4S is a decent save if 4H is cold. If we consider 4H can not be made then X. Dilemma refers to after opp's 4H, how should we treat pd's pass and what action should be taken?

[steve2005]

yaohung, on 2013-May-09, 20:32, said:

I am just wondering how many of you play the concept of either "X or 4S". There should be no play for 4H since we all know 4S is a decent save if 4H is cold. If we consider 4H can not be made then X. Dilemma refers to after opp's 4H, how should we treat pd's pass and what action should be taken?

partner opened in 3rd seat, pass cant be forcing.
3♠ isn't invitational, 3♥ is the inv. so wouldn't be in a forcing pass situation for a 1st or 2nd seat opening either

[lesh]

I would bid 2nt good raise with 4 card support. I don't think the pass will be forcing by pd - we forced him to the 3rd level not to the 4th.

[ArtK78]

How many players play that double shows "I wanted to bid 2♠?" Probably not many.

[aguahombre]

ArtK78, on 2013-May-16, 12:01, said:

How many players play that double shows "I wanted to bid 2♠?" Probably not many.

At what level? I see it all the time at clubs, and they don't know any other uses for the double.

[CamHenry]

aguahombre, on 2013-May-16, 14:03, said:

At what level? I see it all the time at clubs, and they don't know any other uses for the double.

True, but this is the expert-class bridge forum: hopefully most or all posters have encountered other ideas :-)

[aguahombre]

CamHenry, on 2013-May-17, 02:57, said:

True, but this is the expert-class bridge forum: hopefully most or all posters have encountered other ideas :-)

I was aware of the forum, and use emoticons sparingly; so, the disparaging intent was masked. I was equally surprised the question was asked in this forum.

[ArtK78]

gszes, on 2013-May-09, 15:05, said:

while there are numerous ways to handle michaels a very common
method is as follows

* * *

x = I wanted to bid 2s

* * *

aguahombre, on 2013-May-17, 05:07, said:

I was aware of the forum, and use emoticons sparingly; so, the disparaging intent was masked. I was equally surprised the question was asked in this forum.

The reason I asked the question was that, buried in the method that gszes presented the other day was that the double was a stolen bid double.

[aguahombre]

ArtK78, on 2013-May-17, 06:31, said:

The reason I asked the question was that, buried in the method that gszes presented the other day was that the double was a stolen bid double.

Also buried (missing) in his method (and I was surprised he considered it very common) was the ability to show cooperative interest in doubling the opponents. If vulnerability is the concern, opener also knows the vulnerability in these cooperative situations; and passing isn't effective if we have desire to double only one of their suits.

Sitting behind Michaels with QX QTXX KXXX AXX and bidding 2NT seems seems a like strange thing to do at any colors. Some might call it an Irish penalty bid. When partner wouldn't accept the game invite, there is a good chance we will get a better score defending the 3-level doubled; but they are off the hook.

[ArtK78]

aguahombre, on 2013-May-17, 07:21, said:

Also buried (missing) in his method (and I was surprised he considered it very common) was the ability to show cooperative interest in doubling the opponents. If vulnerability is the concern, opener also knows the vulnerability in these cooperative situations; and passing isn't effective if we have desire to double only one of their suits.

Sitting behind Michaels with QX QTXX KXXX AXX and bidding 2NT seems seems a like strange thing to do at any colors. Some might call it an Irish penalty bid. When partner wouldn't accept the game invite, there is a good chance we will get a better score defending the 3-level doubled; but they are off the hook.

I like your reference. Treadwell used to refer to "Ethnic" Fishbein (insert your own favorite ethnic group). Over a preempt, double was for takeout, and the next higher bid was for penalties.

[aguahombre]

It refreshing when the Empire and the colonies can give it a rest and both take their shots at a third party.

[MrAce]

To me 3♠ range in this auction starts from good 2♠ to bottom limit raise hands. So this is perfect 3♠ for me.

I would have more difficulty had East passed, because i do not play constructive 2 raises, i would then probably go with limit raise if it is IMPs.