[32519]

This was a completely random deal from our local club last night. How do you plan to bid this?

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[GreenMan]

In fourth seat I'll probably just open 4♥.

In other seats I might open 1♥, planning to bid Diamonds thereafter, and figure things out as we go. I can see some logic in opening 1♦, reversing into Hearts, then bidding 4♥ as choice of games, but that seems to create as many problems as it solves.

[CamHenry]

GreenMan, on 2013-July-17, 00:51, said:

In fourth seat I'll probably just open 4♥.

In other seats I might open 1♥, planning to bid Diamonds thereafter, and figure things out as we go. I can see some logic in opening 1♦, reversing into Hearts, then bidding 4♥ as choice of games, but that seems to create as many problems as it solves.

Even in 4th seat I'm opening 1♥. Give partner the ♦A (to however many) and three trumps, and 6♥ looks good. I've only got 13HCP, so partner's marked with at least 5 (or one of the oppo can bid something).

The fact that it's MPs makes 4♥ more attractive, particularly in a weak field, but I still like looking for the better slam: if partner has Axxx/void/Axxx/xxxxx, 7♦ looks good and 7♥ is almost no-play (even 6♥ could go down), while xxxx/xxx/Qxx/xxx is enough for game in either red.

I'm not convincing myself here - I just feel 1♥ is better.

[bigbenvic]

No-ones going to pre-empt to extremes with their hands given they've all passed, so I feel 'safe' opening 1♥ and trying to find slam.

Perhaps 6♦ is the place to be and this gives me the best chance of that and keeps 4♥ 5♦ & 6♥ in play as well. I only have 13 hcp so even if partner can't bid someone will balance given the number of spades out there.

[Free]

1♥ is the best start imo. Continuations depend a lot on what happens.

[B Meow]

I am wondering wheather the problem would be easier if we fix ourselves into diamonds.

[32519]

This was a weak field. I was sitting North. The South hand was 5/5 in the blacks but partner chose to pass at this vulnerability with only 8 HCP (we play the Rule of 20 which the South hand didn't meet). The pair who picked up the hand had no clue what to do with it. Needless to say we got a top score when these two never even got to game in either suit. Both 6♥ and 6♦ make. On a ♣ lead declarer takes all 13 tricks.

[Free]

So did you post this just to laugh with your opponents' skills, to prove that you have a top from time to time, or is there actually something interesting about this hand? We don't even get the opportunity to determine if we'd find slam ourselves...

[Zelandakh]

Free, on 2013-July-17, 07:25, said:

So did you post this just to laugh with your opponents' skills, to prove that you have a top from time to time, or is there actually something interesting about this hand? We don't even get the opportunity to determine if we'd find slam ourselves...

It seems logical to assume that he also had clue how to handle the hand and came here for help. But you are right, there is not much interesting about starting 1♥ with an opening hand and the red suits, so I was also expecting a little bit more to follow.

[gordontd]

I'd open 2♥, strong, which I play with some partners in fourth seat. I think I can have my cake and eat it.

[32519]

Free, on 2013-July-17, 07:25, said:

So did you post this just to laugh with your opponents' skills, to prove that you have a top from time to time, or is there actually something interesting about this hand? We don't even get the opportunity to determine if we'd find slam ourselves...

Actually no. I wanted to find out how others bid these hand types. With these sorts of hands we play transfer pre-empts to get both suits into play, where you want to force the auction at least to game. I have now rotated the hand so that N/S end up bidding it. We would have done so as follows:

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[MinorKid]

I'd open 1♦ reversing 2♥, hope partner bid 3♦ over 2♥. Else i will re-rebid 3♦ hoping for 4♦ or re-rebid 4♥ in case of 3♥.
May end up in 6♦ instead of 6♥.

[mikl_plkcc]

I open the higher with equal length in the long suits, which is 1♥ in this case.

[FrancesHinden]

It's all pretty academic because I can't think of a sensible field where West would pass on that hand in third seat.

[32519]

FrancesHinden, on 2013-July-17, 09:59, said:

It's all pretty academic because I can't think of a sensible field where West would pass on that hand in third seat.

If third seat did open, a Michaels cuebid from North now would have made life a lot simpler for N/S. Few got to slam. At our table they never even got to game. Sometimes sticking to the rules work in your favour.

[Antrax]

Unless you don't play Michaels, realizing it just gives the opposing side the complete layout of the hand.

[32519]

If your post has any reference to the 2NT bid promising 5/5 in the minors, there is a major difference between the two (pun intentional) -
1. Michael's promises the other major which only requires 10 tricks for game versus 11 in the minors.
2. When your major suit is ♠ you have the boss suit. If necessary you can save over 4♥. Requiring only 10 tricks you go down less than when the opponents are forced to level 5 as a save over 4♠.

To drop Michael's is silly.

[MrAce]

4♥, change the hearts to spades and i might open 1♠, still not sure though.

I remember a simulation result posted in BBF long time ago. I do not remember whether it was by MikeH or Gnasher but i know it was posted by someone who knew how to analyse the hands. The conclusion he got about the imp exchange was; in this type of wild hands opening 4M has the best effect in long run, even if you maybe missing slams or even grands sometimes.

One can worry missing a slam or grand with this, which is very reasonable concern. And choose to start 1♥ and then his pd in fact holds the cards he needs, and their methods and opponents allow them to find what they have. And they bid their slam making, while 4♥ openers play in game.

Otoh, each and everytime when pd doesn't have those critical cards you need, or when he has but you did not have effective methods or did not have an uncontested auction and could not find your slam, you will be vulnerable to a lot of things that are more likely and frequently to happen, such as allowing them to come in at 1 level and find their fit especially when 1 of their expected fir is the spade suit , allowing them to save vs your game or even slam at 6 level which brings you less than 4♥ bonus in return, and aiding opponents a lot of information which otherwise would have made the defense very hard to success had you opened 4♥. All of these does not even count the hands that you end up in slam, not making.

[Fluffy]

MrAce, on 2013-July-18, 02:49, said:

I remember a simulation result posted in BBF long time ago. I do not remember whether it was by MikeH or Gnasher but i know it was posted by someone who knew how to analyse the hands. The conclusion he got about the imp exchange was; in this type of wild hands opening 4M has the best effect in long run, even if you maybe missing slams or even grands sometimes.

It was awm who said that opening 12-15 hands with 7+ major at the 4 level was a massive IMP winner, do you mean that? The difference here is that you are in 4th position, so the expectancy of competition is much lower.

[MrAce]

Fluffy, on 2013-July-18, 11:07, said:

[/size]

It was awm who said that opening 12-15 hands with 7+ major at the 4 level was a massive IMP winner, do you mean that? The difference here is that you are in 4th position, so the expectancy of competition is much lower.

Probably that was Awm.

About the expectation, you see in forums how many people are very sellective when it comes to opening a hand , they believe overcalling is better, i personally would still open 4♥ but 1♥ is the std bid of course that i would never argue against. As a style when i feel like i am on the border of starting a constructive bid or blast/destructive bid, after going over the plusses and minuses of my actions of course, i usually tend to lean towards destructive bid, as i said b4 especially when i believe they own the spade suit. This is probably just me.