[cherdano]

RSClyde, on 2013-August-23, 20:33, said:

I'm pretty sure that my post started "Everyone doubles with that, your agreement just dictates much latitude partner has."
Does that not count because it's not in all caps?

It doesn't count because you continue to ignore the point I am making.
Maybe it's a language problem: you seem to think a "penalty double" is a double showing trump tricks, or whatever. I think a penalty double is a bid you make when you think the contract is going down.

[gnasher]

RSClyde, on 2013-August-23, 16:14, said:

I think that both Cherdono and Gnasher both misread my second example: I didn't say that 3♠X couldn't be pulled, rather that it can only be pulled by a hand that intended to compete to 3♠ had partner passed instead of doubling. So with, say, a 4th trump or 3 spades and a stiff diamond, you would bid 3♠ anyway. If anything, it might cause you to choose to defend when you would have otherwise bid, but never conversely.

Sorry, you're right - I hadn't read that. And yes, at matchpoints I agree with your argument.

[RSClyde]

barmar, on 2013-August-23, 23:55, said:

If you can double with either xxx AKx AKx AKxx or QTxx Axxx xx Axx, what is partner supposed to do with void QJxxx Qxxx QJxx? It's practically a cold grand opposite the first hand, so he'd better not leave the double in, but requires two finesses to make 5♥ opposite the second.

I completely agree that playing the double as penalty isn't the best agreement. The question asked IF double of 4S was penalty...
If one argues that it still needs to be "flexible" (not the second hand) then their definition of "penalty" sounds more like what I call "cards".

[RSClyde]

cherdano, on 2013-August-24, 02:33, said:

It doesn't count because you continue to ignore the point I am making.
Maybe it's a language problem: you seem to think a "penalty double" is a double showing trump tricks, or whatever. I think a penalty double is a bid you make when you think the contract is going down.

If you're twisting my arm and making me play penalty doubles over a 4♠ preempt then you'll endplay me into doubling with either kind of hand.

In the auction that you talked about initially, we were at the 3 level in an auction where we had found a fit, double can't be nebulous.
1♠ P 2♠ 3♦

If you were to double here just because you have a good hand, like a balanced 18 count, or an 11 count that's 5-5 in the pointed suits, and partner bid 3♠ (say he either has a stiff diamond or a 4th spade), you simply haven't shown your hand and don't know whether or not to bid 4. Furthermore at RvsW if partner has a 9 count with a doubleton diamond he'd gladly pass the double if he thinks it's based on diamonds (should get at least 300 and no game to recover), but if you just have a big balanced hand, then you may well fail to take the tricks to recover your game. So yes, I claim that double here needs to be specific, if I hit 3♦ when I have diamonds, then I have to live with 3♥ as a game try when I have some other kind of good hand.